Bedtime battles - 4 month old

[mdtl]

Hello everyone,
New to mumsnet and looking for some advice.

Our dd is 4 months old.
She suffered with colic and would scream and cry for hours every night (from around 6-9pm) before falling asleep. This was heartbreaking and really stressful for all of us. We would hold her pretty much the whole time and nothing seemed to calm her down until eventually she would fall asleep...

There was quite a bit of shhing holding and rocking, and during the day I used to wear her in a sling..

At about 3.5 this lessened and we assume we’re out of the colic stage now, but she still takes a long time to fall asleep and at the moment is crying for around 45 minutes whether in her cot or in our arms. This is after her bedtime routine of bath, bottle (ff), book and lullabies before being placed in cot with white noise (on all night). Sometimes I can barely get to the book stage before she’s crying... We start routine around 7pm with the view to her actually being asleep by around 8pm...some night she doesn’t fall asleep until nearly 9pm.

Generally wakes up around 6.30am and sleeps through most nights with no feeds.

Naps are usually 30/40 mins long and she has 4/5 a day. Sometimes last one is around 6pm for half an hour but doesn’t seem to help. I try to aim to get her down for a nap after 90 minutes awake time or before if she looks tired... She grizzles quietly then is asleep after about 20/30 mins..sometimes she can’t get herself to sleep so I pick her up and she falls asleep on me..
Every nap before this was on me, in arms or sling, so she is doing well..

Feeling really confused and concerned for her as it’s awful her crying for so long.... I’d very much appreciate your advice and let me know if there’s any other info I’ve missed. Thank you X

Have you tried a dummy?

She is 4 months old, everything you have described is completely normal.

It's absolutely fine to have a routine from whatever age you like , but babies that age don't tend to really start to 'get' the routine themselves until nearer 6 months old. Until then you just feed them, nap them and change them on demand and hope for the best.

You are putting too much pressure on yourself by the sounds of things to try and control things or improve things that are at this point pretty much outside of your control. Some babies just need to cry for 45 minutes before they will sleep. As long as you are there for them, and you have checked they are fed and comfortable it won't do them any har,.

You are also hitting peak '4 month sleep regression' time too which won't be helping.

As she gets older she will start to link sleep cycles herself better. Things like dummies and white noise can help with this sometimes with some babies. Sometimes they don't.

Hang in there. It won't be like this forever, it feels never ending when you are in the midst of it but they change so quickly over the coming weeks this will all shortly feel like a blur.

For what it's worth my DD was exactly the same at the same age, except she woke several times a night as well. She grew out of the 45 minutes of crying by the time she was about 5.5 months which coincided with her starting to try and crawl and roll.

Hi FATEdestiny, thanks for replying.
We’ve tried her with a Mam dummy as that’s the brand of bottles she uses, and also a natural rubber dummy...unfortunately she spits both out almost instantly... Is there anything you can see that I’m doing ‘wrong’ at all - amount of naps or anything obvious that I’m not seeing? Thanks for your help x

Could the crying be reflux? I've no idea of the 'normal' cry some babies do, my son cried all the time and he had reflux and cmpa. It was obvious to me that he was in pain, could it be pain?

I agree with others that routine isn't usually followed by the baby until 6m+ so try not to worry too much about that just yet. If she seems like she's crying an unusual amount/length of time with no known cause then I would look at reflux. Especially if it seems to happen when she's laid flat.
How does she sleep through the night? Is she bf or ff?

Sorry I've just seen that she sleeps through, that's brilliant. To save your sanity try and relax on the bedtime routine, do the bath book etc but if she's not going off like she normally does during the day then all you can do is pick her up and try again a bit later. It won't have any impact on her later on, my son was usually in bath at that age at about 9pm! He's 2 now and he's usually in his cot at 8pm. In winter it's 7:30

We’ve tried her with a Mam dummy as that’s the brand of bottles she uses, and also a natural rubber dummy... unfortunately she spits both out almost instantly

Perseve with the dummy. It will be worth it.

Babies usually do spit it out initially, it's part of their natural tongue-thrust reflex. Since this is a reflex reaction, it goes my indicate baby doesnt want/like a dummy. It doesn't mean anything. The tongue thrust reflex does relax out of the newborn phase and vanishes completely by around 6 months.

Some dummy tips:

• tickle baby's cheek with dummy and have her turn to take the dummy, rather than just putting it in her mouth. Similarly, tickling her upper lip with dummy teat will also have her reaching for it with her mouth.

• the dummy should be bring actively sucked, not just sitting limply in the mouth. Gently tapping the outside of the dummy encourages the sucking reflex.

• try giving dummy at various stages if tiredness. Ideally just after a feed and good wind.

• as baby falls asleep, the muscles relax and this includes the muscles of the mouth and jaw. Dummy will fall out as baby goes to sleep. It is supposed to.

Hi pastabest, sometimes you just need a bit of perspective don’t you? Thank you it’s made me feel a little better! I think having no other friends with babies I tend to overthink things and always question my parenting. I’ve dipped into a couple of these baby books (or manuals for robot babies) and nothing ever seems to add up. Maybe because life isn’t ever that black and white. Thanks again x

Thanks Ponderland that’s good to know.. Perhaps I will just take her along to the gp and mention reflux as maybe it is something like that? It’s really heartbreaking when she’s crying in your arms hysterically and nothing you do seems to soothe her...so pain might be what she’s experiencing?

FATEdestiny thank you for the tips. I’d resigned the dummies to the kitchen drawer but I’ll give it a go this evening and see if it helps.

Wouldn't it be great if we could get the babies to read the books so they knew what they were supposed to be doing!

If there was a book or routine in the world that was actually a failsafe approach to doing parenting right then Mumsnet wouldn't exist.

Thankfully it does.

@pastabest so true! They all have their own differences/milestones which drives every set of parents nuts with frustration/worry but it will pass, then on to the next thing!

@mdtl it's always worth getting it looked into. The crying drove me insane, but what drove me even more to the brink was 'babies cry it's normal' said by people trying to help of course, they weren't to know the crying never ended when they left. if you feel it isn't right then there is always the gp there to listen to your concerns and look at it from a medical POV. Write things down too so you don't forget to mention anything if your babies a handful at the appt.

How did she go down tonight?

I guess because of what you had to do to settle when littler due to colic you've developed some sleep associations that you now feel aren't sustainable. Introducing new ones will help.. comforter, dummy, bedtime routine. 8 seems a bit late for bed.. can you bring it to 7 rather than have a nap at 6?

Are you going to any baby groups? They're a great way to meet other mum's and talk about things like this.

I agree with April45, an earlier wind down for bed is worth a try. I have a 4 month old and he's so much less prone to screaming at bed time when we start the bedtime routine at 6. He's asleep by 7-7:15 and (at the moment, with severely crossed fingers) pretty much settles himself. When we were doing everything an hour later, he'd get screamy (I assume from overtiredness) and only be able to fall asleep with his dummy which he'd then wake every hour for.

Just my experience! But worth ruling out overtiredness...?

I came on to say he sounds tired and overstimulated. Maybe skip the story and lullaby, try bathing earlier or even every second day. It doesn’t sound overly like reflux or a medical condition. You do t want to go down the path of meds ifyou can avoid them as they are not as harmless as we are led to believe

I just typed a huge reply and managed to press something and lose it - curses!

April45 Ponderland and Tonibraxtonhicks, I had a feeling it was over tiredness especially with all the short naps. She does tend to be quite an over sensitive little thing and does get overwhelmed easily...
We tried an earlier bedtime last night which started 6.30pm and was done by 7..she was a bit grizzly but when laid in her cot she started crying. We tried comforting her in the cot but she got so worked up so we picked her up. She continued crying making choking sounds, even in our arms. Tried a dummy but she was crying so much she didn’t even put her mouth around it, she was hysterical :( Tried feeding her some bottle but she refused, so we just kept soothing and rocking her. When she seemed calmer tried laying her down again but she cried even harder. So I picked her up and she eventually fell asleep on me at 7.45 then laid her down just after 8...thankfully slept through til 5.30 where she woke talking to herself quite loudly...I left her to it and within 10 mins she had self settled and slept until her usual wake up of 6.30 (which I’m very proud of her for!)

First nap today she went down quite easily but this second one was hard. I took her upstairs after less than an hour of awake time and still she seemed over tired and cried until I picked her up from her cot and she’s asleep on me. Would that be due to having a 30min nap previously...she’s over tired? We aren’t doing any kind of sleep training and I do end up letting her fall asleep on me when she won’t calm down...am I confusing her by doing this? I hate just leaving her there upset..

I was going to a group until recently but it seemed every time we went she’d start burying her head in my chest and grizzling half way through and we’d end up leaving early as I knew she was tired and about to have a meltdown...perhaps I need to look into other classes as it would be good for both of us. Timing it is hard I find! Always seems to fall when she needs a nap or will do half way through...!

Surprised noone has mentioned 4 month sleep regression but instead went straight to see gp for medication for reflux

Oh and there is nothing wrong with cuddling a crying baby. EVER.

4 month is still veryvery young

I think she sounds over tired. Maybe see if you can figure out some earlier cues and put her down then, Before she gets to the crying stage. Such as looking away. Being starey, clenching fists, whingy, irritable, yawning. One of mine would bat their ears with their hand, another would twist and stiffen as I held him, and if he was sitting or lying down would put his arms behind his head (still does that now when he’s tired at age 8). If I put him to bed as soon as he got “twisty” he’d go straight to sleep. If I ignored it he’d be hell to get to sleep, and I’d say that was from very young, maybe 10-12 weeks; He also would stroke my stomach when tired.

Your DD is only 4 months. As you two learn more about each other her tired signs will become more clear

Thank you Newmanwannabe, appreciate all the advice and from others. She’s in her cot sleeping at the moment. Kept an eye on her for when she looked tired... I am trying to keep awake times to a minimum and, in this instance, it seems to have paid off. Took her about 10mins to fall asleep which is good for her :)

I used to be really upset she wouldn’t take long naps but I’ve come round to thinking at the moment it’s just what she does and it may change...who knows!

Remember one sleep cycle is 40min so if she stirs at that point she could just be coming out of it and ready to go into another, Sometimes watching a little sleep stirring rather than immediately picking up or even a gently pat make settle her into another sleep cycle

I wish someone would lovingly pat me bck to sleep after a 40min catnap

@arbrighton I only have my own experience to go off, I know many many babies with reflux, it isn't uncommon. I'm not trying to say that's what the OP's baby does have, I quite clearly said my sons cry was obviously due to pain. If the ops babies cry isn't a painful cry then she can ignore me.

In my own experience the sleep regressions are bs so I never mention them when someone asks for advice. If you believe that could be a factor then offer some advice and reassurance. Instead you've offered nothing but tell the OP how young her baby is.

@mdtl I'm glad she went down easier, fingers crossed she keeps it up. My ds would have short naps at that age too, they gradually increased in length as he got older.

These catnaps make for a very long day don’t they! Thanks Ponderland. She’s in the cot now unfortunately not asleep but talking to herself loudly and hiccuping....I have a feeling this ones not going to go so well but hey ho :) Going with an early bedtime again tonight..

Hello,

My tuppence- if you used a sling previously, why not try that for bedtimes? It worked fabulously for us for 18 months. The odd month here or there things took a while, sometimes an hour or more of pacing and singing, a feed, back in the sling for more cuddles. But it saved a hell of a lot of crying and knackered backs.

For day naps, we had catnappers, and found anticipating it and lying down next them at about 30-40 mins helped them resettle themselves and they;d go for another 30-45 mins.
I wouldn't have more than 4 naps at this age though, could even try dropping to 3, even if theyre brief. It might be she's not overtired, but not sleepy enough at the bedtime you're using.

Sleep is very very hard for everyone but is does improve over time on the long term, and if you're not feeling good about her crying, then cuddles are the way forward, not leaving in the cot. Even when they don't stop crying, your presence does lower their bodily stress response- you're still doing important work.

Good luck

Just noticed that you seem to feel you have to put her in the cot and that's when she cries. If you say she's sensitive, then why not just keep letting her fall asleep with cuddles/in a sling. Ignore people who talk about "rods for backs" or whatever. Helping your baby learn to sleep independently can take years, it's totally normal. Yes it will mean spending time in your evenings with them cuddling, singing, walking... but it doesn't last long in the grand scheme. You don't have bad nights, so I would say take this blessing from nature of a baby who will go to sleep when cuddled and use it!
Using a gentle approach is fine and you're working just as 'hard' by doing it that way rather than any sleep training.

Thank you InFrance2014 ,

You’re right she does so well at night, at least for now, so perhaps I should just accept that the build up to it isn’t perfect but it’s just something dh and I need to help her through for now. She’s had a lot of cuddling in her short life so far and I wouldn’t change it for the world. The colic stage was hard but I’m glad we handled it the way we did and always held her through it (with perhaps slightly damaged eardrums as a result!!)
I have a bit of a love hate relationship with the sling now, wearing it all day every day for so long! Certainly shouldn’t rule out using it on tricky evenings though as it really did save us.
I did wonder about dropping a nap but thought as she catnapped she needed as many as possible...she’s currently on nap 5 now...oops! As a catnapper who wakes at 6.30 how should her day look like napwise? Just be interested to see opinions...how many and spacing.