Desperate sleep problems with 4 month old!

[casa]

We have desperate problems with our 4 month old ds. The simple truth is that he never, ever sleeps for longer than two hours, and every single night is a struggle to get him to go to sleep at all. If we put him in the cot awake, he screams until we pick him up. We once left him screaming for 45 minutes (trying to comfort him the whole time) before we gave up and picked him up, feeling really guilty for waiting for so long. If we put in the cot asleep, he usually wakes up less than 10 minutes later. Eventually he goes to sleep at around 10pm for two hours or so, and then he's up for most of the night. He naps maybe twice (if we're lucky) for a total of an hour during the day. We've tried swaddling him, and it makes no difference. Our bedroom where he sleeps has blackout curtains, but those didn't help either. It's quiet, and we have a room thermometer so we know it's not too hot or cold. We're trying to do all the right things (or at least, we think so) but nothing seems to work at all!

We've resorted to feeding him until he sleeps and then having him in the bed with us, as nothing else works. We can't even leave him with a babysitter as he won't take a bottle (we tried repeatedly with expressed milk, and he just spat it out) and he won't take a dummy to comfort himself with (spits that out too).

We're both exhausted, though I (the dh) have resorted to sleeping in the spare room as otherwise I'm just totally non-functional at work. In short, it's a total nightmare!!!

The thing is that during the day, he's absolutely wonderful, all smiles and happy and generally just as sweet as can be. But night time just feels like it's a curse, and we haven't had a single good night's sleep together. Does anyone, please have any ideas about how we can get him to sleep in his cot? I'm prepared to try anything!

Why not just let him be in the bed with you. If he sleeps well with you and you all get to sleep just do it. He wants to be with you and you'll be surprised at how many people do cosleep so everyone gets a good nights sleep.

I agree with hercules.
It is so much better for your baby. You will both be happier for it.

I agree with the other two - just let him sleep with you!

We tried this (and still are) but the problem with having him in the bed with us is it means that he depends on mummy being there with him as he sleeps. This means that for him to go to sleep, we all need to go to bed at 7.00pm, which means that (a) we have no life and (b) we don't get anything else done like housework, paying bills, posting desperate messages to Mumsnet, etc. No doubt you're thinking "yes, well that's what it's like with a baby, so deal with it". Anyway, it's probably worth adding that he doesn't sleep much better when he's in the bed, other than sleeping for more than 10 minutes!

We put dd to sleep on the bed and then go downstairs. If she wakes I go back up, feed her briefly/cuddle and when she goes back to sleep I go back downstairs.

What about trying cranial osteopathy?

Try playtex system for the milk thing btw.Only one dd would take bm from.

We've heard lots of positive things about cranial osteopathy, but it sounds a bit "witch doctor" to me! No doubt this is just my ignorance showing here, but would it really help? Then again, I suppose it could hardly make things worse and it it improves the situation at all, it's going to be worth it.

Works for some, not all. Not tried it myself but try searching under current messges for previous trhreads.

Casa - as a mother of 4 I don't think that I actually had a bedtime of 7pm for a 4 month old. I certainly would have a routine of bathtime and breastfeed where baby would fall asleep. I am afraid that I always breastfed my babies to sleep after their bath and never had sleep problems. The earliest any of my babies slept 'all night' was 9weeks, the oldest was 8 months. Does he ever slepp in the pram? Is it a pram or a buggy you have? Can he lie flat? I have a theory that babies nowadays do not sleep so well because they are not taken out in 'proper' silver cross prams anymore. My youngest child is 10 years old now.

Anyway, I digress. Babies sleep better if they have been out in the fresh air IMO. I would go for a walk and once home would leave the baby in the pram in the garden, within sight. If weather was crap I would keep them in the pram in the house. At the first sign of a squeak I would give the pram a push back and forth to get them back to sleep.

I think I would try keeping your ds awake for longer in the evening and bathing him later. If he falls asleep on the breast so be it. Perhaps it might be an idea to put his cot in another room if you can. It may be that you are both disturbing him. Night feeds I always did in bed. I slept and fed. If I woke and baby was sleeping I would put them back into the cot then.

Bit of a muddled post here. I think if you can encourage more sleeping during the day, he will sleep better at night.

Sounds like you're at the end of your tether - and everything seems 10 times worse when you're so tired. I have no miracle answer but some points which MAY help! Does the bedroom have enough air circulating? Is it time to try DS in his own room? Is he thirsty? When he wakes in the night, have you tried not talking to him, not making eye contact etc? It sounds cruel but he needs to know it's night-time and therefore sleep time! Food and back to sleep! Is he ready for solids now? I also do believe that they really pick up on your emotions so try to stay calm! I know that's hard. Things will get better, so persevere and (corny I know) but try to see these times as extra time you get to spend with him!

casa, you could be me a couple of years ago. Eventually I gave up the fight every night, started co-cleeping and have never looked back. Neither of mine have ever used a cot. The only thing I've ever managed at 4 months is to get them asleep at the breast, they've slept in my arms/on the bed as hercules suggests for the evening and then in with us at night. I know that would be viewed as crap by most people but it worked for me and saved me from the battle every night situation which was tearing me apart.

Neither of mine slept for more than an hour or 2 at a time until they were about 6 or 7 months for dd, 9 months for ds. dd is now 2 1/2 and sleeps from 7 to 7 in her own bed most nights. I have no idea why they were like this but in the end I made the decision just to go with it/work round it rather than fight it and feel miserable for the first part of their lives. I personally believe that 4 month olds don't have sleep problems, they just do what they do and are all different.

I really sympathise with you and hope that you find a way through it, it will end.

There have been loads of threads on here about cranial osteopathy - deinately not at all 'with-doctor-y'

My ds1 had huge colic & sleep problems when he was very small & this defiantely helped him a lot to settle. It's probably worth a go.

er - that should be 'witch'....

It sounds to me like he isn't getting enough sleep during the day, and so is overtired and unhappy at night. It may be counterintuitive, but can you try and put him down regularly for naps during the day (at least 3 times at that age I'd say)? That may help him more at night. I think it sounds like you need a bit more of a routine. Maybe read Gina Ford and modify it a bit to give you a bit more flexibility? And the osteopathy can't harm either....

poor you, you must be knackered.

I agree that you shoudl try a cranial osteopath - it worked wonders for us with reflux and we were advised to go by a friend who was having smiliar problems to those you are having right now - she never got any sleep and her husband had to sleep in another room in order to function at work just as you are. After a few sessions of cranial osteopathy they saw a huge difference and ended up with a baby who slept like an angel

Sorry to hear about the lack of sleep, it's just dreadful, you have all my sympathy.
I agree with mears about the fresh air during the day. I used to walk dd for hours in her buggy - for excersize and because she loved sleeping in it. She would also have all her daytime sleeps in the garden - weather permitting.
The other thing that really helped us was baby massage. I used to her massage her every single night before her bath and I think it used to relax us both alot. Is there a class in your area? HV might know.
Also agree with mears about putting the cot in another room - that also helped us. Although, given what you've read you may now want to co-sleep. Good luck and I hope you crack it soon. Keep posting on here - it's a fantastic site and so many people have been so helpful to me over the last 2 years - don't know what I do without it really.

i agree that he might be overtired...at four months we started structuring ds's feeds and also really trying to structure naps and bedtime...we never looked back...really worth a try, a couple of bad days for real long term gain hopefully. good luck, really really feel for you...but it's not forever, you will be able to solve this.

~Probably just repeating other posts but i would definitely recommend cranial osteopathy- i was a real sceptic but it was wonderful. We saw a huge difference after 1 session. can also recommend baby massage as part of the bedtime routine and trying to get baby to sleep more during the day- hard I know! my dd is 6 months and isn't a brilliant sleeper but is certainly a lot better than she was.

We also tried co sleeping but just wasn't for us.

Good luck (btw my dh still sleeps in the spare room quite a lot !)

Also, have you read the Baby Whisperer? Her EASY routine really helped dd at around 3 months. I can email you a bit of info if you like- let me know

casa, I tried cranial osteopathy with dd and it was nice but didn't help. I have a friend who swears by it though so it's worth giving it a try. As to the general problem with sleep, my dd was the opposite of your ds in that she would never sleep in bed with us (even when I wanted her to!) but at that age I used to breast feed her to sleep in the evening, she'd crash out and I'd slip her in the cot where she'd stay (usually) until morning time. If she ever did wake up I'd always just feed her. I know people say it's wrong but by 6-7 months she was sleeping fine and I was no longer having to b/f her to sleep so it obviously didn't do long-term damage. At that age I'd never have left her to cry (although she did sometimes grizzle and grumble when waking in the night) and I think controlled crying is not recommended before 6 months old. I think cc is a good method, we hit a sleep problem with dd at 15 months and it saved us after trying everything else first. As for daytime sleeps, at your ds' age dd NEVER slept in her cot and we didn't push it as she'd get very upset. She'd occasionally sleep on a big cushion in 'her' corner of the lounge, or on the sofa, or on my knee, but mostly in the pram. I'd coincide her sleeps with trips out (had some nice long lunches ) or if it was fine read a book in the park (our flat's too small to fit the pram in through the door and down the steps). When she was about 8 months old we tried putting her down in the cot for her morning nap as she'd been getting much better at going to sleep from awake in her cot in the evenings and she just did it. Also in terms of b/f babies taking bottles, dd was just like your ds, didn't want to know, neither with dummies. But again suddenly at 9 months she drank from a bottle. Finally I agree with what others have said about not having enough daytime sleep. At that age sleep should total between 13-15 hours a day, preferably 11-12 at night and 2-3 in the day. It sounds to me like your ds might be continually over-tired and when they're in that state they never sleep well. I still find now with dd (22 months) that if she hasn't had enough daytime sleep she sleeps less soundly at night and is too tired to get to sleep properly at bedtime. So I think upping the daytime sleep would be a good first move. Will he sleep in the pram? Why don't you just take him out 3 times a day (approx. 3 hours after he wakes from last sleep) and see if you can get him more well rested during the day? Once he's got into a good sleeping pattern in terms of hours asleep then you could address the other problems about where he sleeps.

i would give c.o a try... i was a sceptic... now a convert that i have a happier baby who wants to sleep at night. c.o has literally saved me going bonkers! and def not witch-doctor like at all!!! I agree with mears about the co-sleeping, letting them fall asleep at breast and the fresh air... all of these really help our dd (9.5 months) who is now a good sleeper and a very calm baby. I co-slept till 7 months... at around 4 months i would start her off in her cot, then when she woke, in my bed for feeding on and off through the night... as time goes on, she just spent more time in her own cot, then into her own room, no night feeds... I have only recently had a bedtime for her, of 8.30-ish as any earlier and i dont get enough sleep!