Is this a suitable scenario for CIO?

[gg44]

I know some will say there is never a suitable scenario for CIO/CC, this is a question for this who’ve used it/ know a bit about it.

I don’t really want to do it, so I need to feel confident that this is the right situation for it, or I think I will crack, which is obviously worst of all worlds.

My boy is nearly 7 months, has self settled from very early on, and slept 7-7 from 16 weeks.

For about three weeks now, he has added in a night wake up always around 3 o’clock. If he doesn’t fully wake up, he always does some sleep crying (I can see on the monitor that his eyes don’t open at any point, and he’s clearly asleep in between wails).

To start with I put it down to a growth spurt, and offered a feed as this was the only thing that seemed to work. I always give a very small feed- 90 mls/3 ounces, slightly overdiluted, as I want to prevent as far as possible him getting used to overnight calories. However, I think if it were a growth spurt it would have stopped by now.

He is also getting his first tooth, but I don’t believe it is pain related, as when I have given Calpol in addition to a feed, it has made no more difference than when I have only given feed. He has not bee grizzly during the day and seems pretty unaffected by it.

Therefore, I think that this additional wake up has become a habit.

I don’t think it’s relevant, but during this three week period of the night waking, I have stopped breastfeeding. It has been a very gradual stop, by the end I was down to 1 feed a day. The waking habit has remained exactly the same throughout the transition though, so as I said I don’t think that’s a factor.

Have also been weaning, and he’s taken well to solids, but is still taking the same amount of milk as he did before, so I don’t see that it’s hunger related.

I know one night wake up is hardly the end of the world, but I can’t get back to sleep after the 3.00 wake up, so it’s actually having a big effect on me.

Any opinions on whether CIO/CC is suitable / would work, or any other suggestions?

Thanks.

I did cc with dd1 at 7 months, but she had never learned to go to sleep on her own and it was for that purpose, and it worked, she never got too hysterical and took 3 nights. Slept through after that.

Dd2 has been a different kettle of fish. She learnt to self settle on her own, but is only just starting to sleep through at 17 months. She had 1 or 2 wakeups for water for about the last 6 months. I haven't done cc with her as I honestly don't believe it will work (she gets worked up quite quickly). However I do leave her to whinge and cry at bedtime as I know full well she knows how to get to sleep.

I also really struggle with getting back to sleep and have worked very hard on methoďs for that which has helped no end.

I used cc with my ds when hehe was just over 11 months old. I wouldn't do it in your position because:

1. I personally think 7 months is too young to be certain that they aren't just hungry.
2. You've just stopped bf, he could be teething and 7 months was, in my experience when my dc learnt to roll/crawl/pull up too sitting. Imagine you learnt how to fly, it would keep you awake wouldn't it.
3. It's only one night waking.

When I did cc ds was self settling for naps, eating 3 full meals a day plus snacks, night weaned, using a dummy and teddy to settle at bedtime. He was also waking every 60-90 minutes all night, with each waking needing 30 minutes of rocking. I would work on ways to try and fall back to sleep yourself.

There is a significant difference between 2 minutes of grumbling and full on crying with tears. I do not use the term CC as she didn't cry and I stand by my comment because I would struggle to leave her to cry with tears etc. It is best we agree to disagree here.

As for advising against it:
She only ever grumbled when I put her down for first nap of the day (for some reason she resisted this) and this was the only time I left her alone in the room for a short period. We slept in the same room (and still do most nights) so I was there for all night wakings which is how my situation differs from OP.
As it was just the morning nap, I could also rule out developmental leaps (as they always resulted in increased night waking) and teething as all other sleeps were fine.
Although her overnight breastfeeds had reduced, she was still getting full breastfeeds during the day. We were BLW so she was on the full number of day breastfeeds right up until 9 months so taking weaning slowly was irrelevant as she was still getting all her milk calories and any food ones were a bonus. Also, I was not denying her all feeds at night - I was prepared to feed her every 4-6 hours but she did not wake until 8-10 hours of her own accord

I hope that explains why I advised against it but I really don't see why I need to justify this to you. I said what I did because its what I believed was right, not because I want to change the past. I am very happy with the choices I made after I used the sleep consultant, and I only need to look at my daughter to know they were the right ones.

My boy is nearly 7 months, has self settled from very early on, and slept 7-7 from 16 weeks

Having an easy-to-settle baby can be a bit of a double edged sword OP. It's great that baby doesn't need any help to go to sleep, the problem is there will always be discrete occassions when child does wake and then because you have no established settling method, it can be baffling trying to figure out what to do.

Firstly, i would say that if baby is an established sleeper, this is unlikely to be a long-lived changed and is probably down to hunger from early weaning or pain/illness. For this reason, I'd look more for short-term coping mechanisms rather than long term solutions.

Try to keep weaning foods high calorie, include protein, carbs and dairy. Try to maintain milk feeds, formula if not breastfeeds. Baby does still need a significant amount milk.

I would focus massively on daytime milk so that night time feeds are not needed. Offering small/diluted night feeds are ok for transferring calories to the daytime, but dont solve snything for a hungry baby needing more calories. Your focus needs to be on more daytime calories. At 6-7 months, my daily routine was:

7am - 7oz milk feed (5-6oz drank)
8am breakfast (large bowl of porridge using formula and sliced fruit)
9am - what is left of the 7oz bottle used to make porridge
9-11am nap
11am - 7oz milk feed (5-6oz drank)
12pm lunch (6m jar of savoury baby food, then a plowmans type selection as finger food, then yoghurt, then sliced fruit)
1pm - 7oz milk feed (5-6oz drank)
1-3pm nap
4pm - 7oz milk feed (5-6oz drank)
5.30pm dinner (6m jar of savoury baby food, then our family meal as finger food, then yoghurt, then sliced fruit)
7.30 - 7oz milk feed (5-6oz drank)

Sounds like a phase, have faith, just be there for you little one and it will pass.

I notice there's some talk about different types of crying and responding differently to them. Both my DS1 and DS2 have had different cries that mean different things.

For example there's the one which I have heard referred to as 'singing to sleep' sort of a raaaaawl raaaaawl raaaaawl raaaaawl type noise. Both of mine have done this when falling asleep unless feeding to sleep, for example in the carrier, when being cuddled, pushchair and cot. This has always seemed very much to me like a 'leave me alone mum I'm falling asleep' noise. It never goes on for longer than a couple of minues and intervening only ever has negative effects. With my two this cry either ends in sleep, or escalates through the . Aheh aheh aheh, and then aaaaaahh - type cry that means they want some cuddles.
However the night waking cry that you seem to be referring to sounds like the one mine do when they want attention. I.e. Straight into the Wwaaaaaahh. That always means they want mum :-)

@EightyNine my daughter is exactly the same. Her grumble/whinge is her getting herself to go to sleep which is why I leave her to it while watching closely on the monitor. Like you, I give her cuddles when she's crying too and help her go to sleep (used PUPD when I sleep trained, have found other things that work since then)

I've argued with this poster about the exact same thing in the past and last time it ended in an extremely nasty and personal attack on me which was completely unjustified. I wasn't as strong at the time and it left me feeling utterly awful and worthless. Now I'm much more confident, both of my skills as a mum and of my knowledge on sleep, so I will stand up for myself and will also try correct those who instantly assume that all sleep training causes harm. CC should not be the first go to method for all sleep training, but is entirely appropriate for some families and they should be able to do it without someone coming along and making them feel like they are worthless and harming their baby (which is exactly how I felt).

Wow, thanks for taking the time to reply everyone. Some strongly held views, all useful.

@eightynine, totally agree about the different types of cry - what confusing me is that it’s not the hungry cry, or the OH MY GOD pick me up cry - it’s on and off, sometimes a bit half hearted, and some nights he goes back to sleep, but others it goes on long enough or escalates a bit so I go to him. Very unclear what the actual problem is. I can always tell when he’s been woken up before he naturally should have been (eg by a noise or hunger) because he wakes up crying, whereas he wakes up happy (from naps and overnight) if he’s slept his ‘natural’ amount.

@fatedestiny - agree about daytime calories - I really struggle to believe it’s actually hunger as he’s having all the milk (loads!) that he used to before weaning, plus a decent amounts of high calorie stuff like avocado and chicken casserole.

@riddles26 - I get what you’re saying about what you did, and thanks for the offer of your sleep consultant’s advice (we actually used a sleep consultant early on to sort out crap naps, and it worked a treat).

Anyway, conclusion of all this is that I will continue to do my small, diluted feeds overnight (I’m not worried about overdiluting his milk as he’s huge, gaining weight and eating loads in the day). I certainly agree that everything is a phase, so hopefully this one will wear itself out.

Thanks all.

gg44 - how much food is your DS having? I have just checked my notes and at 7 months my DD (consistently tracking the mid point between the 91st and 98th percentile curves) was having 900mls of formula + 3 decent sized meals (including chicken casserole).

One tactics I would definitely try is "wake to sleep" (you can do it at around 10.30-11pm):

www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/02/wake-to-sleep.html

I used it to extend DD naps and it indeed worked wonders.

Also, it may be worth checking the temperature in your DS room. DD sleeps much better when it is 21C rather than 18C. She clearly does not agree with NHS recommendations.

This is a systematic review on the questionable outcomes and harmful effects of sleep training, summarised here.

Totally off topic, but I literally came on here to find out what a Chief Information Officer (i.e. head of a firm's IT) had to do with sleep issues ...

FiftyShadesOfDuckEggBlue - I have read the actual abstract of the systematic review and:

(1) it covers babies younger than 6 months; and
(2) it argues that previous studies claiming that sleep training babies under 6 months is beneficial have not been conclusive and ignored a number of factors.

It does not demonstrate sleep training applied to babies younger than 6 months is harmful.

Very unclear what the actual problem is

What's his motor skill development like gg44? That rocking on all-fours thing they do before learning to crawl can affect sleep. Likewise rolling but not yet competently so getting stuck.

I found a hand on baby's chest/back and dummy inserts helped to still and calm baby enough to go back to sleep.

wintertravel1980

(1) I know that the studies only looked at younger babies. OP's baby is 7 months old. Even if there was such a thing as safe sleep training, I don't think 1 month later it would be considered safe for all babies given the huge variation in the way babies develop.

(2) Quoting from the paper's abstract: "In addition, behavioral interventions for infant sleep, applied as a population strategy of prevention from the first weeks and months, risk unintended outcomes, including increased amounts of problem crying, premature cessation of breastfeeding, worsened maternal anxiety, and, if the infant is required to sleep either day or night in a room separate from the caregiver, an increased risk of SIDS."

@FATEdestiny - no sign of getting on all 4s yet, and he rolls/wriggles all around during playtime, but doesn’t move an inch in cot. We have a video monitor so I know it’s not movement that’s doing it. If only they could tell us what’s up!

@BossyBitch -

FiftyShadesOfDuckEggBlue

(1) the study does not cover babies at 6 months - it deals with babies between 0 to 6 months. We are therefore comparing (roughly) 3 month olds to a 7 month old and there will be significant differences.

Also, there is a big developmental change happening between 6 and 7 months - babies start getting the concept of object permanence. For younger babies, there is no difference between CIO and CC. Babies under 6 months do not realise their parents still exist when they are out of sight. At 7 months, babies know parents will be there for them even when they are not in the same room. As a result, regular reassurances start actually making sense.

(2) Exactly, the quote says:

"...behavioral interventions for infant sleep, applied as a population strategy of prevention from the first weeks and months, risk unintended outcomes..."

"RIsk" does not mean " lead" or "result". It is a hypothesis put forward by the author of the review.

Doesn't separation anxiety kick in for most babies at around 9 months? I don't think DD got the concept of object permanence at that age, she was still in tears when someone left the room (and still happens now at 11 months old).

You are right about the quote, I read this too quickly while feeding DD so I misinterpreted it! But at a very minimum, what the abstract says is that such interventions 'have not been shown to decrease infant crying, prevent sleep and behavioral problems in later childhood, or protect against postnatal depression'. So the authors state that it has been proven that they don't work (and they hypothesise the might increase the risk of those other unintended outcomes).

Just a quick extra post to say with regards to the type of cry, it does sound like something's annoying him and he's struggling to get back to sleep doesn't it. Have you thought of sleeping in his room for a night to see if you can identify what it is? You might find arattling pipe/sharp change in temperature/milk float going past/annoyingly early blackbird/moth is the problem?

between 6 and 7 months...
Babies under 6 months....

Age, as they say, is just a number. Children develop at all different rates and one if the reasons I don't like this app thing (wonderweeks?) that informs parents of various "leaps" at various specific ages is that it doesn't take into account the differences in child development.

For example my firstborn took her first steps at 7m2d old (PFB, I knew her age that exactly) and was a confident outdoor walker within a week. My 2nd child was only just learning to roll at that age. So any "leaps" that are prescribed as relating to gross motor skills would be wildly different for a baby walking at 7 months and another walking at 17 months. That's just motor skills. One would would imagine there are similar wide variations in emotional development, intellectual development, language skills and so on.

So it becomes difficult to say when things like object perminance and separation anxiety will develop in any individual. It would be incorrect to say anything like all babies have this by 6 months, 7 months or whatever. Maybe most do? Maybe only around half do? Maybe that's the mid point of the range? I don't know the figures and averages, but there has to be a range in all aspects of child development.