Pick Up Put Down

[gigi556]

I've started using PU/PD over the last couple of days with DS who is now 15 weeks. However, I haven't read the Baby Whisperer and I'm not sure I'm doing it right. Do you literally just put them down and then pick them up when they cry and then put them back down when they are calm? Also, I've been doing this with a dummy which I read isn't recommended... So far, DS is settling in 10-15 minutes. Can I phase the dummy out later? I really don't think I could do it if it took much longer than 15 minutes.

Has anyone used this method with success? How long does it take for them to start settling without picking up and putting down several times?

A dummy is an amazing tool of comfort for a baby if you don't want to hold them to sleep. I don't think sleep training is even recommended before 6 months but if you want to go down that road I'd give baby the comfort of a dummy x

This method is recommended from 3/4 months it seems so I thought I'd give it a whirl as we have been having to transfer him asleep previously which takes ages and is frustrating when he wakes up. We have been cosleeping and it's not working for us so I really need a way to get him to go down that isn't attached to me or DP.

I would definitely do PUPD with a dummy, because I have zero ability to listen to baby crying.

I would:

• place in cot
• dummy in and firm hand on baby's chest
• wait in that position, still and stationary with eye contact and head close to baby's head, replacing dummy if needed
• if not settling, pick up.
• calm baby down in arms
• put back down and repeat.

I used PUPD when my daughter was 5.5 months old with the help of a sleep consultant. Unfortunately my daughter was a total dummy refuser so I can't advise on that.

In terms of the technique, this is how I did it:
Each time she cried I would give her a minute while trying to soothe in the cot with touch and voice. If she didn't stop crying, I picked her up and cuddled her whilst shushing (with no movement), the second she stopped crying she went back in the cot. Once she was down, I would wait and see if patting and my voice kept her calm enough to go to sleep. If she cried for more than a minute, I would pick her up again and repeat. I stayed in the room until she was in deep sleep so if she stirred, she saw I was still there and hadn't left her.

Firm hand on the chest didn't work for my daughter but patting works brilliantly, it takes trial and error to see what works for your one. When she is unwell or sleep regresses now (she is almost 11 months), I sit next to her cot and pat her and she goes to sleep. When she starts fidgeting as I pat her, it is a sign that she wants me to leave the room so she can fall asleep alone.

In terms of how long it took for a result - she took really well to it for the first 2 days then protested - it took a good 40+ mins to get her to sleep when it protested. Her protest was one of anger and not wanting to sleep, rather than one of distress. She rarely cried for a continual minute so I didn't end up picking her up too much but I was in the room for a long time to make her realise that going to sleep was no longer a negotiation and she had to sleep (she was a total nap refuser from 5 weeks old). We had her consistently sleeping in her cot with me standing over her after about 10 days.

Ok, well I'm trying to limit movement when I pick up but to be honest I'm just doing whatever I can to calm him down before I put him back down so I bounce/rock a bit put him down when he calm then I'm stroking his head and shhing. Seems like I'm not doing it totally right but I think I'm going to continue for a bit and see how I get on as he does seem to fall asleep in his cot eventually. I can't see it working without the dummy (i.e. too many tears) but might try to phase out the dummy later if it becomes a problem.

Now I just wish he'd give us a decent stretch of sleep. Occasionally we get a 3-5 hour chunk but most nights it's only 1-2 hours Last night I shoved the dummy back in after an hour stretch and got another hour out of him. My HV said if he's waking he probably is hungry so I need to feed or risk losing my supply (he's EBF). Can I try to extend 2 hour stretches to 3 at this age? I feel bad not offering the boob in case he is hungry. He's 13lbs and been gaining perfectly along his growth chart. I'm feeding every 2-4 hours during the day and offering as much as possible in the hopes he isn't so hungry at night. All the feeds last night seemed fairly brief

I would just feed in the night when baby needs feeding. He is still tiny. By all means try to resettle with dummy every now and then, if it doesn't work. I would just feed! Their tummies are still very small and they digest milk very quickly.

They wake due to habit and hunger - distinguishing between the 2 is the challenge!

My sleep consultant told me that as my daughter was ebf, i shouldn't expect her to sleep through the night before she was on solids but I could expect minimum 4 hour stretches at night which sounded perfect to me at the time. When I stretched her feeds to 4 hourly by using PUPD, she surprised me and increased this stretch to 6-8 hourly on her own! We also fed her to routine during the day so she knew when to expect feeds and she started emptying both breasts at every feed once we did this - her growth then accelerated and she skipped almost 2 centile lines.

@crazycatlady5 If OP is choosing to sleep train, she shouldn't offer a dummy every now and then, she needs to be consistent in dealing with night wake ups otherwise will cause unnecessary distress for baby. So she could set how frequently she is happy to feed eg 4 hours, and only use dummy if baby wakes within this time. If they wake after then to give them a feed.

The way you are dealing with wake ups sounds absolutely fine, you can reduce the movement as time goes on. Don't worry about right and wrong, just do what works for your baby but be consistent with your actions so baby learns what you are teaching him.

@riddles26 Interesting. What kind if day routine did you have then? I'm following EASY plus occasionally offering extra feeds in the hopes that extra calories during the day will help reduce night wakings... But I guess if he's waking and isn't really hungry this doesn't make a difference! He occasionally sleeps for 3-5 hour stretches and slept through 8 hours once about a month ago. The night after he did an 8 hour stretch without feeding (he woke up after going down but we settled without feeding). So from this I know he can go longer than 2 hours without eating... But as you say knowing which wakings are from habit and which are from hunger isn't the easiest - especially at 3am!!!

The PU/PD method helped me sooo much with my two kids! The method is easy but the point is to do it right with all the details, otherwise it won't work!
Tharcy Hogg is great but I know that people get overwhelmed with the amount of information that she covers in her book. After reading it I didn't have step by step instructions which I needed! So
I have found short and clear instruction of this method in "How to teach a baby to fall asleep alone" ebook by Susan Urban. It is very short so reading it took me less than 30 mins and I knew everything. So the method is great but you must do it right!

@Mewith Thanks for the tip! I'll have a look at it.

The routine we had was pretty similar to the one in Gina Ford's book (but with an extra feed and slightly more daytime sleep). Before using a sleep consultant, I was giving extra feeds during the day for the same reason as you and was very skeptical about restricting feeds when the sleep consultant advised me to. I reluctantly agreed to try the reduced number of feeds for a week with the intention of increasing the frequency as soon as the week was up but it worked wonderfully and she didn't go hungry at all. She explained it to me that by me feeding her frequently and letting her doze on the breast (she would doze with feeds but refuse to nap all day), she was constantly snacking and not taking a proper feed to fill her up. She said that if we have a day of grazing without proper meals, we also don't feel full and sleep well, its even more applicable in their case as they are growing.

In terms of distinguishing hunger and habit - it was the sleep consultant who told me to apply the 4 hour rule. If she woke within 4 hours of a feed, I was to use PUPD and put her to sleep. If the technique took so long to get her to sleep that it ran over 4 hours, I was still to continue and get her to sleep then feed her when she next woke up (I never needed to resort to this but she said it was an important point to avoid them learning to resist sleep for a certain timeframe before we give in and feed). Within 2 weeks she was sleeping a 6-8 hour stretch after being put down at night and then a further 4-5 hours after her feed.

Prior to the 4 month regression, my daughter used to sleep through the night at her own accord but be awake all day so an 8 hour stretch at night is certainly possible for your one. At around 17-18 weeks, regression hit and everything fell apart as she already didn't nap and poor night sleep resulted in a very grumpy and overtired baby. We did attempt PUPD on our own but with partial success.

I personally think its a good idea for you to have an established settling technique before your one hits the 4 month regression so you know how to settle him and he knows what you want him to do when those wake ups become more frequent. Its definitely what I intend to do if and when I have another baby to avoid having any of the sleep disasters I had with my daughter

(Also with regards to your health visitors comments about supply, you have successfully established breastfeeding so if you are ebf and baby is growing normally, you will have no supply issues if baby sleeps long stretches at night. As I said, mine slept 8-10 hours at night from 8 weeks old until she was 17ish weeks, then again from around 22 weeks and I am still happily breastfeeding at almost 11 months)

@riddles26 I have been worried about the regression but then thought "How could this get worse?"

I had a re-read of Ferber's chapter on frequent nursing at night and he suggests that from 3 months it's not necessary to have more than one night feed and to increase the minimum number of time you will offer the breast between wakings each night. So if baby normally goes 2 hours, don't offer the breast prior to 2.5 hours on night one (i.e. settle without feeding), then stretch to 3 hours on night 3, 3.5 etc. So I tried that last night with DP settling when not due a feed and this resulted in a feed at 12:30 and 4:30. It was interesting. I feel much more rested this morning! The 12:30 feed was definitely required and he emptied my massively engorged breasts! The 4:30 feed turned out to be a snack as he dozed off very quickly after being offered the boob. This surprised me. He was up at 6 ready for a full feed and to wake for the day. Six am wasn't within the 2.5 hour timeframe but he's normally up at the time anyway and was clearly starving.

I think I saw Gina Fords book at the library so I'll see if I can get my hands on it. Someone else also recommended it.

I'm also a FTM and will definitely do some things differently from the start next time! I'm really winging it. Had no clue about baby sleep, settling etc. Still learning. Plus, it all changes so quickly. One week something works and the next it doesn't seem too. I definitely want to crack the settling technique.., We are off on holiday for a week tomorrow so hopefully it doesn't all go out the window!

The technique you have described for reducing night feeds sounds equally appropriate and achievable in that it also accounts for baby being breastfed and the need for them to gradually adjust to not being fed to sleep every 1-2 hours. If you are comfortable with it, definitely go with it until you achieve the desired number of feeds (I personally am happy with 1-2 night feeds between 3-8 months and then feel that they should be down to 1 to encourage solid intake). I was told to have a fixed wake up time and offer a feed at that time regardless (even if previous nightfeed was just an hour earlier) as they learn that they are always going to get milk then so will start to stretch that period at the end of the night themselves as time goes on.

IMO Gina Ford has some good principles but is militant in the way she goes about it. Her routines set out a good structure for the day, the amount of sleep and frequency of feeds a baby should have at each age but they are very strict so I would use them as a loose guide. I strongly disagree to her advice on introduction of solids too.

My main advice to you would be to keep whatever you do consistent and try something for at least 1 week to see if it has an effect. You will get so many opinions but once you have set on doing something, stick to it for long enough to see a change no matter what everyone else says. The chopping and changing is what is worst for baby and leaves them unsettled and leaves you really confused. I really wish someone had told me this 9 months ago as I think it would have made my life a lot easier.

Enjoy your holiday :)

@Mewith I used the same guide with my son a few months ago and it has worked extremely well. You are so right - there is no way that this methot won't work, you just have to do it RIGHT!

@Caitttlinn @Mewith How long did it take to work? Were there many tears?

@gigi556 in our case it was 2 or 3 days. The method is pretty gentle so not many tears and you are with your baby all the time so no worries :)

@gigi556 same here - 3 days! the method is actually pretty gentle, without CIO

@Mewith this guide is actually really great! I tried this method with Tracy Hogg's book but I got overwhelmed with the amount of information that Tracy covers in her book and in the end I was confused and I think I made my baby confused as well. Anyway it didn't work and now I know why - I made a few mistakes during the sleep tranining. Urban's guide gave me step by step instructions. After reading it (it's around 20 pages) I knew exactly what to do. It's already two days behind us and we are doing so well! I wouldn't make it without this guide. The autrhor knows how to deal with babies. 10 out of 10.

@riddles which sleep consultant did you use please? I am really interested in what you've written, as I have a nap-refusing 4 month old who is EBF and to be honest his weight gain is really struggling. The idea of doing fewer feeds but filling him up more is very appealing!

ConWWW and aleXandra167 (and the other one earlier upthread)

This Susan Whats-her-face must write a really crap ebook to need you to perpetually keep making new Mumsnet ID's to keep talking to yourself about this ebook in copy and paste language.

It's insulting to the intelligence of Mumsnet users to think we don't notice. Especially those of us who spend a fair amount of time on the Sleep Board. You don't think I notice your popping up every couple of months or so with new ID's peddling the same book?

Mumsnet have managed ways in which you can advertise. Or, if you wish to invest a bit of time and maybe get some free advertising to boot, maybe stick around and offer a load of practical help from your vast knowledge?

Much better than just starting a new username, advertising your ebook and starting another username to reply to yourself and continuing the advertising. I appreciate you have a book to sell and a business to run, but dont you not see how desperate that looks?