Sleep help please!!

[CluelessMumma]

My baby girl is 8 months old. She's amazing and smiley and soooo funny... but! She has never really slept very well at night, the best night ever she still woke at 1am and 4am (down at 7, up at 7). She goes down ok (breastfeed to sleep after her bath), but almost always wakes after the first 40 mins. At the moment she is waking up every 1-2 hours 😫 Sometimes my husband can rock her to sleep, but mostly I feed back to sleep. Most nights she ends up in my bed from around 3/4am when I just can't face getting up anymore and putting her back in her own room.
Naps aren't much better, she only feeds to sleep and even that can be tricky. She will nap in the pram but only if it's moving - she literally wakes he second I stop pushing it! She doesn't have a great routine as every day is so different depending on how she has slept during the night.
I just don't know what to do. She gets so distressed if I don't pick her up when she's crying. I feel like I've failed her massively but not instilling better sleep habits when she was smaller, but I honestly thought she would get better not worse. It's killing me waking up so often and she ends up not hungry during the day as she feed so much at night. She won't take a bottle at all, and is not fussed on solids really. I start work in a month and I'm so stressed about what to do. I hate the idea of controlled crying - I'm terrified it will change her personality - she is genuinely the happiest baby ever, never ever cries (except at night!!) always laughing and shouting!
What can I do? It's all I think about now and I end up googling like mad and almost paid crazy money for one of those sleep sites. I just feel like I've massively messed up and now she will end up suffering for my total lack of competence and planning 😓 I don't want to punish her at night for my mistakes, I love her so much but I'm here in tears after going to the third time in an hour.
Any advice or experience is very welcome!! Thanks in advance ❤️

The truth is you haven't made any mistakes. Can you think about cosleeping for a while to get through the worst? I am in the same position as you with my 7 month old but I have accepted the way things are. She'll get there in the end! When she is ready. She'll start sleeping longer and longer as the time goes by. Also, look at the 8-10 month sleep regression. I've heard some people saying their baby started sleeping much better after that time. She is a happy smiley shouty baby because you're an awesome mummy! X

Mine goes in her cot and then I bring her into bed after her first night waking. We snooze and she feeds every now and then - last night she only woke once at 4am! So there is hope for all of us x

Thanks... she ends up in with me most nights, breastfeeding on and off. I sleep so badly with her there though, my back is really suffering! Also conscious of starting work and that she will be sleeping over one night a week at my mums because of shift work 😱

She's woken up another two times - crying so so hard, as soon as I lie her down with me she goes back to sleep. Had to feed her one time, but the second time she just slept as soon as she touched my bed 😫

That's ok though isn't it? Are you worried about a rod for your back? It seems like that's a nice easy way to settle her

She just wants her mama xx

I'm totally conflicted about all of it 😂😂 I guess that's just motherhood...!
I worry about how she'll cope on nights that I'm not here. I have had one night away and my husband ended up having a horrendous night, driving 30 miles to get her to sleep eventually! So I feel like I have to teach her to sleep independently but have no idea how. In my bed she still wakes loads, but settles much more quickly. I've got work looming over me like a ticking time bomb to get sleep improved 😫

Honestly I don't believe it is something that can be taught - in my opinion sleep training 'forces' it, not teaches. I would try to start your husband on bedtimes a couple of times a week. My husband manages to get mine to sleep once I have fed her of he rocks her on a rocking chair while playing music. Perhaps after a nice hot bath with some lavender? You feed her and snuggle then pass her over and see how everyone gets one. I feel it's kinder to practice slowly and get her used to it - just my two cents

Your two cents are very welcome 🤗 thank you.
He is incredibly helpful and supportive, and I know he wants to do more so we'll definitely try what you've suggested.
There's so much you read about sleep associations, sleep training etc it's a minefield. How is anyone supposed to know what to do?!
Should probably go to be and get some sleep, but of course totally wired now 😂 will kick myself at 6am when I'm desperate for more time in bed!!

So I feel like I have to teach her to sleep independently but have no idea how

To go from where you are now to independent sleep is going to be either (a) a very long process or (b) brutal and involve a lot of distress.

Babies don't have to be independent sleepers to be good sleepers.

A family who do planned cosleeping, family bed, all go to bed together and offer on-demand feeding to sleep and affection from the beginning of the night through to the end of the night may well all get loads of sleep. Mum and Dad being well rested from early nights, no one having to get up or out of bed at any point, sharing the load with cuddle reassurance (both for baby and for each other) and fast, effective resettles for baby with minimal disruption to anyones sleep.

You seem to be comparing yourself to families who opt for early established independent sleep. That's fine, its a great option to get yourself a good sleeper. But its not the only way.

Your current parenting style seems to be far more aligned with the family bed that it does with independent sleep. My thoughts (for what they are worth) is that most sleep battles arise when parents want to swap from the two opposites - so they have an attachment-type parented baby but want independent-sleep type outcomes. I think if you want to establish gentle (ie no crying) independent sleep it needs to be done early, by 2 months old or so. Certainly in time for the 4 month regression. After this time it's going to be brutal and involve distress in one kind or another.

If you just accept that your way is of the feeding to sleep and cosleeping variety, there need be no battle and you could all get yourself more sleep.

And if you do decide you want/need baby to sleep independently, then there are kinder ways to do it than controlled crying. Have a look at the opening post of this thread for one idea, based on speeded up Gradual Withdrawal:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/1394888-What-worked-for-us-Hope-this-helps

So I would set up the cot as a sidecar (if you haven't already) so baby has that extra space if needed, but

(ignore that last paragraph, I forgot it was there)

OP, I can so much feel for you, have been there twice - still am with 10 mo dd2. With the massive difference though that I have no work waiting. So I'm afraid no advice, but I can assure you you are not alone. (Not a great help for you going back to work, sorry). I think once more FATE is very wise with her thoughts about the major frustration coming from carrying out one parenting style but wishing the outcome of a different style (of course only in the direction, from "attachment parenting" to sleep trained sleeper). I have been suffering so much from this confusion, feeling guilty and not understood.
One thing though re. your worries about your baby having to spend nights with somebody else: my babies in that age adapted much better than I expected to not having me at night. I think they know exactly who they are with at night and of course don't expect anybody else than you to feed to sleep, so that somebody else might have more success comforting them otherwise. With dd1, we sometimes let her sleep with dh to give me some rest. (We did it usually for two nights on a row because in the first night, I couldn't sleep through anyway). And after these nights she tended to sleep better with me, too. For a while. With 10mo dd2, we are currently doing some self invented "sleep training" consisting of her sleeping with dh without night feeds after a dream feed. While it didn't go without tears, and she is still not sleeping through, it has improved massively in the first week. And this was coming from feed to sleep at every wake, and she woke lots. I think though her sleep had improved since 7months old anyway. What I'm trying to say is: maybe her spending nights with somebody else will help her becoming somewhat more independent of you.

Please don't beat yourself up - you haven't done anything wrong and by comforting her and feeding her you're being a great mum! My DS was exactly the same, woke every 2 hours from 4 months until 9 months, after that it was every 3 hours and then at around 11 months he finally started to improve. The main thing we did was having my DH take over at night (I think we did this around 11 months when we saw some signs of improvement), gradually he seemed to stop waking when he realised he wasn't going to be fed. He was a few months older than yours though but if your DH can sometimes settle her then maybe carry on doing that a bit and gradually try and increase it. Also could you start getting your mum to come over and take turns in settling her so she gets used to your mum? You don't say when you go back to work so it depends how long you have. But it won't last forever

I can really sympathise with your post as I've regularly posted on here about my 8mo who is just the same. She wakes every night after 30min regardless of bedtime, then every 1-2 hours through the night. Fortunately I'm not due back at work until January, but I can imagine the added stress caused with the return to work looming over you.

I don't have much advice as I'm struggling myself, but what struck me in your post was the fact that your DD is in her own room. It sounds like you're not keen on going down the sleep training route so it seems you'd be best off trying to maximize sleep for everyone. Can you bring the cot into your room - traipsing across the hall is no good for anyone. If not can you put a mattress in the baby's room and sleep next to her bed?

Also try not to worry about your mother having to settle the baby. With my first I was convinced the nursery would never be able to get her to sleep but it was fine. I think babies are more adaptable than we like to think when they're in a different environment and mummy isn't there to swoop in at the first grumble!

It is very difficult to give advice as we all have different parenting approaches. An idea that seems great to someone else, would strike others as unworkable. Ultimately, you have to do what is right for you as a family. Advice from a sleep consultant worked for us and giving baby her own room the night after she turned 6 months gave us all better sleep. We did not do cry it out or controlled crying, just changed the way we did things e.g. putting on sleepsuit after breastfeed to put her to bed awake and dissasociate feeding from sleeping. Gradual withdrawal method worked too.

Thanks for all the feedback ladies - it's such a minefield, and I think my problem is deciding on a method and then sticking to it! Every time I read something different I second guess myself 🤦‍♀️
My husband can sometimes get her to sleep during the night, unless she's particularly grizzly with sore teeth etc, so I'll keep that up and maybe get him to do a few nights totally on his own at the weekends etc.
My HV had said about feeding before bath, but that seems like it won't work as after her bath she is desperate for a feed - so your idea about putting her in the sleeping bag after her last feed might work as it's a bit less severe!
Thanks again... it's so hard trying to work it all out!!

Ps - ONE last thing.. is it normal for naps to get loads worse when they're almost crawling? She was never the best napper but the last few days she has done 20 minutes MAX and only after being walked in the pram for about 2 hours 🤣 she honestly seems to be fighting it!! Is this normal?!

is it normal for naps to get loads worse when they're almost crawling?

Oh gosh yes. Second only to pulling to standing.

The rocking on all-fours stage that comes with crawling is dealt with in just the same way as the pulling to standing phase - repeatedly lying back down.

It's about teaching baby that the cot is a place for being still, quiet and calm. So no crawling around and stuff in the cot.