I think I have a permanently overtired baby, help?!

[Naschkatze]

I'm going a little bit insane over DS' sleep and feeling very guilty that my baby often seems tired all day. He is 5 1/2 months old. We had a period of time from about 8/9 weeks where he was sleeping from about 9pm - 2/3am, waking once for a feed (breastfed) and going back down until about 7am. It was bliss! After some advice on this board from @FATEdestiny (shameless name drop ) and others, I felt like I had cracked naps too by not keeping him awake too long.

Then the 4 month sleep regression hit and it all, well, regressed! He now seems to only be able to be awake for an hour at a time in the day (start to see tired signs) but only naps for 30-45 mins and it is hard to get him to go to sleep for those naps, sometimes taking half an hour or more. He wakes 2/3 times in the night, feeds and sometimes will not go back to sleep for an hour or so, happy to play/babble. He is quite often exhausted and ready for bed by 5:30/6pm, which seems very early and doesn't really suit us! Especially as we're weaning soon and I'd like him to be part of our mealtimes.

The nighttime wakings as they are I can cope with (every hour like a few weeks ago, I cannot) but I'm really concerned that he just isn't getting enough sleep because he seems so tired. I'd also like a bit more structure to my day, as it seems lots of babies are having 2/3 longer naps by now. As it is, I'm still always either feeding him or trying to get him to sleep and I can't get anything done plus going a little bit crazy.

So I suppose my main questions are: Should he not be having extended naps by now?
Is there anything I can do to extend them and create something maybe slightly resembling a routine to our day? (I should say, a few weeks ago, he would occasionally have longer naps in his crib and I thought we were on to something!)
I'm hoping that sorting out daytime sleep will also help him sleep better at night. Last night he screamed on and off from 6:30-9pm after I put him to bed and I think it was down to overtiredness.

Sorry for the mega post. Help!

@NameChange30 I agree with you - my baby doesn't go to sleep until at LEAST 8.30 often 9. There seems to be an obsession with getting babies to be by 7pm.

For extending the LTN - Yes I made sure she was nice and full and warm and then when she inevitably woke after 45 mins I always left her 15-20 mins to see if she'd go back. About half the time she did, after a bit of protesting.
If she was still awake after 20 mins and not happy then I would get her up and do a slightly longer afternoon nap in the pram.

HT85 Glad we're not the only ones!

"I have a baby who is sleeping maybe 12-14 hours in a 24 hour period on a good day"

I believe 14 hours is normal at this age. So 12 is on the low side but not too bad. DS usually sleeps for 11-13 hours in a 24h period, if that's any consolation! I usually worry when it's 11 and happy when it's 13.

Name I know what you mean, like I've said, I would expect him to be able to be awake longer too (comparing him to other babies his age I know) but he genuinely does seem tired after an hour/an hour 15. If I catch it right, it's much easier to get him to sleep. Likewise with bedtime. He is often tired around 5/5:30, we've tried a nap then hoping for later bedtime. Still the calmest, happiest bedtime seems to happen around 6:30/7. The night he screamed, he hadn't slept all afternoon. So while he went down at 6:30 fine, he then woke up every 20mins, inconsolable. I'm just going with my gut feeling that he needs more sleep than he is getting at the moment. Definitely helps to know others are the same though!

As an aside, the putting down for bedtime wasn't as a result of 'formal sleep training'. He just started to not sleep when downstairs with us in the evening so we moved him upstairs and he now falls asleep in the crib after bath and feed, while I lie next to him.

Thanks HT85 I don't have a problem with holding him to sleep, but he stopped wanting me too a few weeks ago! I picked him up just now (trying to get him to sleep in crib) because he was having another grumpy tired meltdown and he squirms and arches his back. After I put him down again and lay back down next to him he fell asleep. He doesn't want to be held, but there's no way I can leave either... like yours he would wake almost instantly.

Ineed My only reason for posting was because he seemed unhappy, however perhaps it's just a developmental leap/teething/ anything else like PPs have suggested. I just thought that more sleep could help.

Q: I'm confused as to why you kept on bouncing for an hour if you knew baby wasn't tired this morning.
A: Because I didn't know he wasn't tired! He certainly seemed tired even after the 15 minute cat nap.

Is it possible you are seeing other signs of upset and mistaking it for sleep? You know your baby better than me, it is possible though.

IME low level hunger gives similar signs to over tiredness. By this I don't mean the "I'm hungry now" cry you get when baby needs a feed in that moment. I mean the longer lasting signs like grumpy, clingy, difficult to settle to sleep, light sleeping, waking easily. These could be signs of a baby who's calorie intake is on the low side compared to what they need. Exactly the same signs as over tiredness.

In terms of increasing calorie intake, it's about finding ways of increasing the total amount of milk drank over 24/48 hours. Also factoring in solids in addition to milk (not replacing milk) in early weaning. So it might mean:

• bigger volumes of milk per bottle feed (offering more than is drank, reoffering bottle after a break for winding)
• bigger volumes of milk per breastfeed (feed longer, avoid distractions, and various other milkmeg tips)
• more milk feeds given during daytime (by reducing the time between feeds)
• Introduction of a dreamfeed when you go to bed
• reintroduction of night feeds

If I'm home I will just take him to our bedroom, close curtains, put on white noise, rock him to sleep, wait 5-10mins and then put him down.

Absolutely nothing wrong with this. Country to popular belief, I am no Oracle!

If I had just one child, I can say with certainty naps would be in a dark room upstairs for my baby. I wouldn't rock to sleep, I'd cuddle to sleep in sidecar cot then sneek out. Exactly as i did at bedtime. Much the same principle though. Then I'd dummy/cuddle/firm hand to extend naps, as happened in the night.

I rely on bouncer for all daytime naps under 6 months because, frankly, it is the easiest possible route to independant sleep for me in our busy house with 4 children where I can't just take myself off for lengths of time like that.

Fate Cross posted.
He could be hungry. He's EBF and as I've mentioned, hasn't taken to solids yet, so I have no idea how much he is getting. He is a small baby (always been on 9th centile) but is gaining weight according to his 'curve'.
I offer him milk about every 2 hours during the day, usually when he wakes from a nap and just before I try to get him back to sleep.
And, thinking along the same lines as you, I started switch feeding recently to see if he'd take more.
He has just (the last week or so) dropped the 'dreamfeed' which wasn't really, as he used to wake sometime between 10 and 12 for a feed. The last few nights he has gone through to about 2am.
Still feeds 2/3 times in the night or early morning.

Anyone BF with experience of adding in a dreamfeed bottle then? Would probably need to be formula as I can't express enough any more. I'm not against trying it though. He does take a bottle (as long as it is me and not DH penny parents...)

Who knows who penny is... 'or my'

I bf and added a dream feed bottle of formula, just a couple of weeks ago. Before that it was a bf dream feed. DS is younger than yours though (3m) and takes that feed almost entirely asleep, with DH. I'm aware we have a regression due in a few weeks so it will probably all change! But it is working fine in terms of my supply etc at the moment and nice to get a few hours of continuous sleep.

He does take a bottle (as long as it is me and not DH or my parents)

Possibly going off on a tangent, but i think there are great benefits for the development a secure attachment with baby (if you buy into that theory) if baby has a single, primary carer in the baby months. Thats most likely to be mother rather than father, due to breastfeeding.

There is a process used by adoptive parents called funnelling, which uses this principle. Googling makes for interesting reading.

So for the first year, I would do pretty much all of the car giving to baby. Dad night might have a cuddle or play when baby is happy/awake, do practical things like nappy changes and getting baby dressed. But I wouod do all forms of care comfort until baby was independantly comforting. All of it, every bedtime, naptime, night wake, every feed, comfort every cry.

Some might fret about the fathers bonding in doing that. I think when i was a FTM I wouod have done too. It seems unfair and one-sided when written down like that. But I take it in the context of family life...

DH and I have 4 children. So while I am doing all aspects of care for baby, DH is simultaneously doing all aspects of care for our other 3 children. Once tgey sre over about 1y, he has completely taken over bedtime entirely. So while I'm tied to all aspects of bedtime (by choice, due to funneling ideas to form secure attachments) for the first 12 months, DH then takes over all aspects of bedtime for the following 12 years. I think I get a fairly good deal, if you look at the bigger picture.

Anyway, I'm waffling....

You give the bottle. Don't feel the need to insist others need to just because they 'should'. If you're there and you could do the care for baby, get DH or your parents to help in other ways instead. Make a meal, do some ironing, whatever.

Fate that's really interesting. I'd been worrying because we seem to be going through a period of separation anxiety where he isn't settled by anyone but me. He used to take a bottle from DH but now refuses.
We see my parents once a week or so and thought it would be okay to leave him with them for a couple hours. It wasn't!

Interesting FATE. Have you left your DCs with anyone else in the first year and if so how did you organise it? DS has generally been ok if I leave him with DH for a few hours - although last time he had a massive crying fit apparently We left him with my parents once, just for a couple of hours, and he was apparently fine for a while but screaming when we got home! So I'm a bit worried about not being able to leave him with babysitters

I realise I am lucky to be a SAHM, so I don't have to leave the children with anyone. It's only ever if I/the children want to and I should add the caveat before I start that i realise many parents don't have these choices.

For the first year, unless it was a special one-off occassion, I would organise life so I was always there for the start of naptime and bedtime. I don't need to be there once baby was asleep and assuming baby sleeps well then she would happily play with anyone who was smiley and fun. That didn't need to be me.

That meant moving social dates to daytime over evening. I meet friends for breakfast or have weekend lunch dates rather than evening meals. I wouldn't have even done this when dealing with unpredictable sleep under 6 months.

My mum would only look after baby without me there at our house in the first 12m, after I'd already settled baby for sleep time. Likewise I'd only go out child-free when DH was home if I knew DH didnt need to do sleep time. He is a parent obviously, as capable as me to entertain and look after our children when awake/happy. But baby needed me for sleep. Only me. So DH would just keep baby playing for longer until I was home.

The first time I took baby to my Mums and went to leave with baby awake (I'd always gone after baby was asleep) was about 12 months. I immediately aborted, baby wasn't ready and it just wasnt that important to me to leave baby. Tried again several times and at about 18 months she was ready, happy wave me off for an hour or two and stay with Nana. This progressed to half a day, then including naptime, then all day. First overnight sleepover at Nanas house was about 2y.

What you may be need to remember in all of this is that I have a very different life yo your average FTM. After 13 years parenting, my days of nights on the razzle are done. Give DH and I a child free night, we'd rather have an early night, a loud shag and lots of sleep, than go anywhere. So frankly, I mostly just didnt go out as a child-free adult for that first year of baby's life. Nothing was so important to drag me away for those 12 short months. But a decade of parenting is what got me to this stage, I play the long game. It's a bit different to your average wide eyed FTM full of promise and optimism to "do it all".

"It's a bit different to your average wide eyed FTM full of promise and optimism to "do it all"."

I'm sure you didn't mean it to, but that came across as rather patronising towards FTMs.

I'm a FTM and certainly not expecting or trying to "do it all" Would just like the possibility of an evening date with DH occasionally, which I'm sure will be possible if and when we can bring DS's bedtime forward a bit so I can put him to bed before we go out.

I also want to be able to leave DS so I can do exercise, which is as much for my mental health as my physical health. So far it hasn't been too much of an issue leaving him with DH although I think it can be a bit stressful for him - he can't soothe DS with a boob as I can!

Anyway sorry for rambly derail OP

I don't mind going off topic!

After my first attempt at leaving him failed so horribly and left everyone miserable, I've realised that I won't be able leave him with anyone but DH and only for short periods anyway. I'm okay with that. The one time we went out was for lunch on our anniversary and I did it more for DH than me!

I was wide eyed and full of optimsm as a FTM, and a second time mum really. Not anymore though.

Hey ho.

I've managed to continue my weekly (plus) volunteering with Girlguiding going throughout all of the baby years. And meet ups with friends. And "dates" with my husband. Just managed differently nowadays, compared to the pre-baby days.

Crossed post with you Naschkatze. Im by no means saying anyone has to or should parent like me, just that I do. If you don't want to leave baby and are good with that, that's fine. The time will come when everyone is ready.

NameChange30 if you want to, or need to, that's fine too. It doesn't matter that you want to parent in a different way to me. I'm not some kind of rule book. You asked what I did, I answered. That's all.

Well you did more than answer, you made a sweeping statement about FTMs, which I wanted to challenge, but don't worry I'm not offended, and certainly don't need your permission to parent differently

I'd suggest you read my post/posts in context NameChange30, rather than pulling small quotes out of their context. Otherwise you end up coming across as defensive and rude. I'd add "...and I'm sure you didn't mean it to" but I think you set out to have that rude, unpleasent tone with me. So I won't.

The paragraph in which you pulled the FTM quote read:

"What you may be need to remember in all of this is that I have a very different life to your average FTM. After 13 years parenting [our 4 children], my days of nights on the razzle are done. Give DH and I a child free night, we'd rather have an early night, a loud shag and lots of sleep, than go anywhere. So frankly, I mostly just didnt go out as a child-free adult for that first year of baby's life. Nothing was so important to drag me away for those 12 short months. But a decade of parenting is what got me to this stage"

This is me acknowledging that it's perfectly reasonable to:

"like the possibility of an evening date with DH occasionally" or "want to be able to leave DS so I can do exercise" (your quotes) when you have only a few months of parenting 1 child.

There's no need for your (uncivil) defensive tone. I was pre-empting exactly this, understanding and empathising. That, NameChange30, was not patronising.

This post, will tell you I am more than capable of being patronising when I want to. That one wasn't, just your defensive attitude rendering you less capable of seeing the wider context. Apologies by personal message are accepted

Back on topic ... could he be teething? Our son recently started fussing/grizzling an hour or so after he woke up, pulling ears, rubbing eyes, even though he was regularly going 90 mins plus awake time. Yet he wouldn't nap if put down. We found that a bit of Bonjela just before settling him for daytime naps (after usual 90 mins) helped, plus a bedtime dose of infant Neurofen or Calpol. Worth a try?

Thanks Cuppaqueen - could be! Will give the teething gel a try. He's had some signs for a couple of months (lots of dribbling, chewing fingers, funny bfeeding latch) but no visible signs of teeth yet.

He's had a decent length nap this afternoon so I'm hoping that he'll be happier this evening.

Glad he had a good nap this afternoon.
Red cheeks are another sign of teething. We've had some success with teething granules, FWIW. Well, it's tricky to tell but I think they helped!

Hope bedtime goes more smoothly tonight anyway.

Apologies for the thread detour there Naschkatze. I had not anticipated my slight tangent would take such an unpleasant turn. It was not my intention and if I'd have realised it would create such a negative tone, I wouldn't have bothered.

So anyway, as you were....

That should have read 'thread detour into funnelling theory...'

Actually Fate I enjoyed an hour or so reading up on funnelling theory following your post. I knew nothing about it, very interesting. And your idea about being the baby's main carer to begin with made me feel better about the fact that DS is only settled by me at the moment.

After our good nap, we thought we were in for a relatively easy evening. Sadly not! It took ages to settle him to sleep. He weaned himself off being fed to sleep a little while ago and as I've mentioned sometimes fights against being held. Feel like he's taken away my two best tools to help him when he can't do it himself!

Yes, I thought the funnelling theory stuff was interesting and still pretty relevant.
I don't want to derail the thread any further so have chosen not to respond to the other comments, tempting as it is to defend myself!
Sorry bedtime was a struggle - hope things improve for you tomorrow.