Help - almost 3 year old and 4.30am starts

[mammabear4]

My DD has always been an early riser, around 6ish is normal. Recently though she has been waking up between 4.30 - 5.30 and NOT going back to sleep no matter what we do.

She goes to bed at half 7 with no problem. Any later she would be completely past it - we've tried.

She was breastfed til 14 months, then night time bottle, but hasn't had a bottle for ages now and has never had a dummy.

We have a gro clock AND a gro blind on her window, but she gets up out of her bed and into our room (which at the moment is light at 4.30! Those bloody noisy birds too!)

We're very relaxed about her being in our bed, we coslept until she was just over one and had no problems transitioning into her own space. We've tried letting her get in bed with us, putting her back in her bed with a story... and just about every other trick going. Some have said just ride it out and she will adjust but at the moment it seems like that will never happen 😴

I'm 15 weeks pregnant and utterly drained and DH works long hours so these ridiculously early starts to the day are killing us.

Sorry for the long post but ANY help or advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you x

BayLeaves - you post jusy shows a misunderstanding of what attachment parenting or gentle parenting is. Much the same as the OP actually.

"I like the ideals of attachment and gentle parenting, but I've found you have to get the balance right - sometimes you lose sight of the forest for the trees. What I mean is, by adhering so strictly to certain gentle parenting policies, you can actually end up in a situation where you end up having the opposite of a 'gentle' upbringing for your children."

Having to be the opposite of gentle (leaving baby to cry) comes from only half-doing attachment/gentle parenting. Gentle and attachment parenting do not (would never) lead to the opposite, if done fully.

A large number of the issues on the Sleep Board derive from parents who like the idea of gentle or attachment parenting, or fall into doing these methods without realising, but in fact don't have the time, patience or commitment to follow through to its natural conclusion. Or only half do it, suggesting they like the idea of gentle parenting for the easiness, but when it takes longer then peers using harsher methods they chop and change.

The OP likes "softer" approaches to parenting. I have no issue with that, so do I. The OP is happy with the parental bed being the childs source of comfort when waking, but then is unhappy that when child wakes early morning, it's the parental bed the child seeks (and in doing so wakes up properly). To me it is logical, common sense that this is the obvious outcome, I wouldn't expect anything else from this parenting model.

I have gentle parented my 2 year old, she has never cried at sleep time. But I knew I wanted an independant sleeper so ensured I introduced the tool of choice for no-crying independant sleep - the dummy.

I made myself into the secondary source of comfort, not the primary source which was the dummy. I'm always there the moment dummy isn't enough comfort. But that's a rarity nowadays, usually independant comfort from the dummy is enough. For the last year we've been working on blankies becoming primary comfort, so that dummy can go. But I'm happy to go at a baby-led pace.

The OP has made herself into the primary source of comfort and therein is the problem. Child in a seperate room to primary source of comfort.

My ds didn't sleep through until he was 3- looking back it was because I wasn't firm enough so I agree with WannaBe rapid return EVERY SINGLE TIME,no talking and no response to any attempt at conversation.

Some more great suggestions thanks everyone :)

Typically DD has woken at 6am (a much more reasonable time!) for the past 2 mornings. She has had two very long tiring days and only very short naps so that might be the way forward.

@FATEdestiny I think it's extremely patronising for you to tell people they have a misunderstanding of something. I get where BayLeaves was coming from. And I don't have any misunderstandings of what attachment parenting is thank you very much. It's fantastic for you that using a dummy worked for you and your DC, personally I'm glad my DD hasn't ever had a dummy and never felt it's been needed, I don't see why you needed to share that information on this thread apart from furthering your point that you are apparently the Perfect Parent . The way we are choosing to parent our DD is working for us. We coslept for over a year but DD herself was unsettled and uncomfortable having not enough room in our bed which led to an easy transition into her own bed - thanks for the judgement but actually that wasn't our choice to only "half do" AP.

This thread was only to ask for advice on how to encourage her to sleep longer - not because I am jealous of peers who use harsher methods. I certainly wasn't looking for somebody to patronise my understanding of the parenting approach I'm undertaking or for somebody to insinuate that I'm only doing a half arsed job.

I can see you're a well respected member of the sleep forum and you give great advice - so maybe just leave the unnecessary judgement out of your next post?

I don't see why you needed to share that information on this thread...

I was making the point you could gentle parent and still have an independant sleeper without "end up in a situation where you end up having the opposite of a 'gentle' upbringing for your children". It was continuing the discussion points raised by BayLeaves. That's why it was quoted as such.

The conversation had moved on from your opening post mammabear4. You're being defensive for no reason.

I cannot see your point anyway. I agree with attachment/gentle parenting and that's what you are doing. I agree with not using harsh methods and that's your aim. I prefer dummies, loads of people on mumsnet don't, it's not relevant that we favour different methods, the principles of kind, gentle, caring parenting are the same. And we agree on that.

I've already answered the opening post with an attachment parenting suggestion or an independant sleep suggestion both helpful even if I say so myself. I've added a bit of opinion in that post. And includes the fact I am QTS, since ypu seem to consider that relevent. Then the discussion and conversation moved on and left your opening post behind. I joined in with this continuing discussion. So what is it you are feeling judged about? I don't deal well with delicate flower types.

Just wanted to say I absolutely disagree with giving a screen in the night,apart from anything else it does not give the body a chance to re settle and go back to sleep. You'll be swapping one problem for another if you go down that route. She has to get used to knowing there is no point getting up as the day won't start .

Rapid return doesn't need to be harsh just consistent, definitely get this cracked now as you won't be able to when the new additions come along.

It's bloody hard, I remember it well! I kept thinking ds would grow out of waking up for a drink but he didn't,we had to break the cycle. Best thing I ever read was that we teach our kids to eat,talk,manners, drink from a cup,eat with cutlery etc therefore it stands to reasons we need to teach good sleep habits too.

I don't deal well with delicate flower types you're hilarious and it must be great for you to have found this little hobby of feeling so important commenting on mumsnet threads.

I am "feeling judged" about the fact you said I "misunderstand" the parenting method I am following. I don't misunderstand it, you have no idea who I am or how I parent my child. Your previous post was of no use to the original post of this thread. End of.

And now this conversation has just descended into a silly argument which isn't helping anybody! Your original post was helpful and informative so thanks for that. But then you were called out for being patronising. Don't get your back up about it love, maybe just learn to be a bit nicer and move on.

I agree re screen time DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen

My 7 year old went through a phase were he was waking 6am ish (our house don't wake until 7am ish) a few years ago. We let him have the kindle with headphones, to keep him quiet.

Big mistake. He started waking earlier so that he could have longer on the kindle. Because screen time (especially in the mornings, which are busy) is normally limited, the early morning bonus hour on the kindle became like a treat for him.

So it became the case of instead of waking up gradually over half an hour or so, the moment his brain hit concious thought, kindle straight on. It got earlier and earlier.

We had to ban screen use in the mornings completely to solve it. It is much the same issue as the OPs daughter getting up really - the erosion of the willingness to stay in bed and drift in and out of sleep in the early morning, due to the "treat" of doing something nicer if getting up.

mammabear4 - Glad to hear you are not misunderstanding what attachment parenting is. There are some really great family bedroom set ups that would get all of you more sleep - if that's your thing. They can include room for toddler and baby, Google has some great pictures.

Thank you FATE will definitely have a look! Cosleeping with twins - definitely another story altogether.

Am reluctant to give her an iPad or similar at 5am but to be honest we often end up downstairs with recordings of Octonauts on anyway (while I nap) which is really no different.

I'm hoping that she will grow out of it - as tough as it will be in the meantime - I think a previous poster mentioned enjoy the extra morning time. She is USUALLY up after 5 and if I'm going to bed early I perhaps miss out on some adult evening time but feel better about such an early start and then we can have a bit of chilled early morning play together.

However will keep FX that the 6am get ups continue!

Just noticed it's 10pm and I'm still up - perhaps not going to be too prepared to deal with an early start tomorrow morning - will aim for 8pm bedtime tomorrow

Cosleeping with twins - definitely another story altogether

Couple of sidecar cots should help.

I wouldn't put TV on either, it's tempting but you're still sending the message that if she gets up early she gets to watch telly. She needs to know there will be no 'reward' for getting up early.

It only took ds 2 nights to go from waking in the middle of the night every single night to not only sleeping through but being able to re settle himself if he did wake up. I always swore that if I'd had another child it would've been a very different ball game!

I live in a really bright (ridiculously annoying white walls and windows everywhere) with crap white blinds.
I bought my dd a children's eye mask after my mum said give it a go. It's really helped. Don't listen to the pp who have heavenly dc who never wake up early. I am very strict with my dd (just turned 4) She is very well behaved. She refused to take a dummy so I gave that up early on and since summer she has been rising earlier and earlier.
The eye mask has made a huge difference. I also now say she has to stay in her room and play. This morning she woke 30 mins earlier than normal and I just told her it wasn't wake up time, she needs to play in her room. I consistently return her every few minutes if she still tries to come in my room and so far so good.
This morning I told her to play in her room as it's early, she then came back to my room when it was a later time and walked in wearing her ballet dress. I was like wtf, then remembered if had 30 mins extra lying in bed listening to all the rustling in her room

To avoid loud playing out rule was looking at books I'm bed or playing with a you but you must stay in bed. That allows for falling back to sleep.

Lol @ ballet dress!

**toy not you

How long would you keep up the Rapid return? 1 hour and 20 minutes of going in every five minutes this morning, wonder how many steps I've done before 7am!!!!!!!

No advice but we are in a similar situation with DS (4) who is consistently waking up at 5am. He comes into our bed and watches stuff on my phone for a bit and then wants to go and have breakfast. I never get back to sleep and I'm so tired. He has a black out blind and did have a gro clock but it didn't work. He just made a fuss until one of us had to go into his room and wait with him until the sun came up. I would be tempted to try some of the techniques advised here but the problem is DD (19 months). She is still in our room and if he kicks up a big fuss, he will wake her up. She wakes up anytime between 6am-7.30am depending on what time she has fallen asleep and if woken up, will completely meltdown and scream for at least 30 minutes. It's difficult. He starts school in September, so I'm hoping that he will start to sleep in more. We're supposed to be moving them into one room by the end of the year which I'm not sure is a good idea at the moment given that their sleeping patterns vary.

I do sympathise! It must be even more difficult being pregnant.

Are Gro Clocks worth a try for early risers? Or even a digital alarm clock?

Digital clock is no use until child can count up to 60 and understands the basics of telling the time.

My almost 3 year old would not understand the process of how long to wait until the sun comes up on the gloclock. In my toddlers head it would just be 'sun is up on the clock' or 'not sun is not up on the clock' with no appreciation of it being 10 minutes until sun up or 2 hours. The passage of time is a complex concept to grasp. You've also got to consider if she will wait, or just kick off in exactly the way she already is. I think it's too young for the groclock to be effective.

We've had this problem with DD (3.8) for most of this year. I definitely agree that the screen time doesn't work, it becomes a treat and they get up even earlier!

The thing that is working really well for us recently and most consistently is the groclock combined with a reward chart. The groclock on its own had no effect but with the reward chart she's now staying in her room playing with her toys until well after the sun comes up.

I was thinking of covering the minutes bit of the clock so she just saw the hour, she always says "is it morning time now?" when she comes our her room. But yes, she is probably just wanting attention from us and knowing the time may not change that.

I worry that my daughter only gets 10 hours sleep when she should be getting 12- she has no nap so can't make up the hours that way. It impacts her behaviour hugely, never mind that I'm exhausted 😃

I'm currently going through this with our 3 1/2 yo, whilst pregnant with my second.

Did you ever find a solution? Did she grow out of it?

It's painful 🥴 x

This might sound ridiculous, but could you make 4.30 am your new wake-up time? This is when I get up as I get so much more work done before the chaos of everyone else getting up and rushing around.

Is there anything productive you could do at that time, whilst your toddler sits in front of the TV?