OMAMA - are you out there?! Early waking help needed!

[GaryWilmotsWedding]

Hi! I've read lots of previous threads and Omama seems to be a bit of an expert of early naps linking to early waking. I've got a few issues with my 8 month old DD and could use some advice. I am trying to move the morning nap and shorten it but all I've got is a horribly overtired baby who is now waking early from her lunch nap totally wired! Can anyone help/advise? Our day looks like this:

4.20am (without fail, every day) first wail, then back to sleep on her own
5am wake up for good, sometimes crying, sometimes just whimpering etc.
6.15am proper crying, I feed her at this point
7.30/8am breakfast
9am/9.15am nap until 10am

11am sometimes a bottle if she has not fed well earlier (often only has 4oz for first bottle)
11.45/12 lunch
12.30/1pm afternoon nap. Used to sleep 1.45-2.5 hours but frenquently now waking after 45 mins-1 hour crying and won't be resettled. If this happens I give her a power snooze in the late afternoon in the pram.
3pm ish bottle
5pm dinner
6.15/6.30 bottle
Bath
Bed by 6.50/7pm
Last two nights she has cried for 15 mins before settling down whereas she used to go down without a peep.

Where am I going wrong?! She is teething but is fine when awake so I don't think that is bothering her. I have tried everything in the mornings - feeding before she wakes, feeding when she wakes, leaving her, PUPD, cuddling her etc etc. It's pitch black in her room and there is no environmental noise to disturb her. I am shattered and concerned she is not getting what she needs. She goes down awake and can self settle but she's got to the point where she is too tired to I think. I could just about accept the 5am wake up (she is a baby not a robot and all that jazz, I get it...please don't tell me it's just normal etc) if she seemed happy and rested, but she is very clearly not. Please help!

I feel your pain!
How many oz's a day is she having? How much solids is she eating?

Thank you! Just that helps! She has 18-20oz a day but eats like a champ. She's fairly big but never been a great milk drinker (a good breast feeder though). I honestly don't think it's hunger - I've tried dream feeds and she doesn't take much and still wakes at the same time. She easily dropped night feeds around 5/6 months and if anything I have found feeding her in the night disturbs her sleep more. She's often not very interested in having more than half her bottle in the mornings. So I am sure we do not have a hunger issue. But we do have a habit problem - it's always the same time every day!

God...that's a lot of milk! Does she have 3 big meals in addition to that?!
We just have 5oz first thing and last thing....
Could you give her her last bottle after her bath?

When she wakes up at 4.20 and then 5 do you just leave her until 6?

Could she be cold? We have a wee heater that goes on at 4am.....

Do you use white noise to get sleep cycles to join together? Particularly for pm nap?

Sorry about all the questions.....this will pass x

Does that seem a lot of milk? It's only around the recommended amount, and we often only get about 16oz in. The last bottle tends to go in in stages - a bit before bath, a bit after and then once in her room. She'll have 150-200mls then. She has a decent idea of day and night and even when very small didn't feed much in the night.

She has 3 decent meals, and two with protein in. Spoon fed but I give her things to feed herself too. She simply would not be satisfied by the things she can feed herself - she just nibbles bits and bobs. She is not very hungry these last couple of days - tends to pile on weight and then drop right back on eating/drinking. So I'm responsive to that and she just has less.

I leave her at 4.20 as she almost always goes back to sleep. I've tried going in when she wakes at 5, over and over or just once, cuddling, patting in cot etc etc. Nothing works - I think it's just too close to wake up time to get back to sleep by then and she has had a borderline acceptable amount of sleep. If she'd go to 6am I think she'd be very happy!

I'm sure she's not too hot or cold - I've tried various outfits and sleeping bags to no avail!

Thanks for thinking it through for us!

I think you've covered most bases....I was in a pretty similar boat and then consulted a sleep consultant advice.
I too was giving too much milk (hence why yours doesn't finish a bottle......or always take the morning one). She should be draining it, particularly the first one off the day. The recommend guidelines are based on babies who aren't taking 3 meals a day.....

Since I cut back on milk, played white noise all night, and only went in if REALLY upset then he does sleep through for 11+ hours . We too wake up around 5 but I leave him until 6 and that's fine for me as he goes down at 6 and we are all up early for work anyway.
We do a nap for 45 mins at 9, then another sleep 1-3.
Sometimes they just get themselves out of a habit (into a bloody other one) so I'm sure she will change in due course. Just feels shit when your in it!!!
Could be so much worse...! X

Totally agree it could be much worse - I am very grateful we don't have all night wakings! (Occasionally but not more then every few weeks) So how does it help cutting back on milk? Are their digestive systems too active or something? Interesting that it helped! I can't get her to drink much water from a cup though so have been concerned about dehydration. Although their is a fountain of dribble constantly so I guess she's ok! Thanks for the suggestion. My mum will be pleased - she keeps telling me she doesn't need the milk if she's eating well!

Another one here with early waking 14 month old and keen to understand how "too much milk" might be a thing!

OP, I feel your pain too. But to me the schedule looks okay for an 8 month old... Apart from the shorter nap in the afternoon which may be leaving her overtired. Have you tried resettling when she wakes up after 45mins? I seem to remember DS going through a similar phase and we had to resettle him when he woke up early from his nap. The other thing I'd say is you'll find she'll grow out of this early morning thing at some point... Hang in there!!

I think the basic science is that food is replacing the milk.....plus obviously solids keeps you fuller for longer.
One day I just didn't give him his usual milk and instead water/rice cake or toy to distract. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be
You've also got the 8 month sleep regression to contend with....only lasted a few weeks with us so don't despair x

Hmmm, has been going on for almost 3 months! Getting a little tired of waiting now....

Yes, I do try to resettle pikapoo. Used to work but now doesn't! We had some very grim days in the winter, battling for hours to get her to sleep after she woke up. It worked, but it took so so long and I almost lost my mind. I do try now but I give up quicker as I just cannot face it. One problem with resettling is that now she's older she doesn't cry that much, just screeches and blows raspberries. Seeing me just hypes her up more. And I promise you - I know it sounds cute and lovely blowing raspberries but I have learnt it means she is overtired. If I let her get up she will be crying an hour or so later. She is VERY cross today, but I have some time to resettle her when she wakes from lunch nap. Anyone want to hold my hand whilst doing the same?! I did use a sleep Consultant the first time and she was ace - really saved my sanity - but she son may leave and I can't face it alone!

How long is your power snooze in the pm for and is it a minimum of 2 hours before bed?

Just a quick 20mins, around 4.30, so yep there are two hours before bed.

Ok....try 10mins.....or move bed time to earlier.....persist for 5 days to see if that makes a difference maybe? X

I've only heard of "too much milk" being a thing if (a) you have baby 9 month plus baby still not taking to solids well, as a way to stop baby filling up on milk. Or (b) an toddler who is getting over weight.

GaryWilmotsWedding - is baby eating well? NHS recommend children under 5 have at least 12oz of milk a day. I think 18-20oz if fine given he doesn't drink much water. Milk is the next best thing for a child to drink, after water.

Those early waking and the shorter afternoon nap - I think these are linked to over tiredness meaning when baby enters any light sleep periods (which early mornings will be, and second nap of the day often is too), that sleep becomes fretful and restless - leading to wake ups.

I suspect if baby was better rested, these periods of time when sleep is naturally lighter will not to so light that baby wakes.

So going completely against the grain of advise here, I would suggest an earlier morning nap. I would shift all naps earlier, reduce all of the awake times and allow for a more significant 3rd nap. All with a view to getting baby more sleep in 24h.

Then once baby is getting routinely more sleep and is well rested, then start moving the naps and bedtime later to shift the morning wake up.

My suggestion would be 2h30m awake times up until 5pm and for naps let baby sleep for as long as possible. Then 3h awake time before bed. This will mean more naps per day and will mean a flexible bedtime.

Some examples:
5am wake, 7.30-9.30 nap, 12-1 nap, 3-4 nap, 7pm bedtime
Or
5am wake 7.30-8.15 nap, 10.45-12 nap, 2.30-4.30 nap, 7.30pm bedtime
Or
5am wake, 7.30-9.30 nap, 12.30-2pm nap, 4.30-5pm nap, 8pm bedtime

You get the idea. There are loads of possibilities.

Perhaps you could contact the sleep consultant you used before? I wouldn't want to give you more of a mind fuck on here....I'm simply going off what mine suggested to use for my son x good luck