Help with newborn please!

[NauseousNancy]

My baby is 17 days old, and I am on my knees with her sleep.

I don't expect a routine at all, but she is awake every night from about 2am until 6/7/8am. She will fall asleep on me, but wakes and cries when she is put down. She also grunts a lot when in her Moses basket but never when she is asleep on me.

Is there anything I can do??

Thanks for ANY help!

A MUSLIN not a Muslim ffs.

We never had a Moses basket. DD slept on me, in her pram (daytime) or in her hammock. A hammock is brilliant as it isn't flat and it moves, so replicates the womb conditions that newborns seek.

You don't mention winding. It's really important to do this with a bottle fed baby - you'll end up with periods of purple faced crying otherwise! My son was breast fed but he still needed a bit of winding to avoid him being uncomfortable.
Mine pooed after each feed (including night feeds) for months unfortunately. When he finally stopped pooing in the night it was a cause for celebration!

What do you mean by grunting? Grunting in a newborn isn't ever normal. What kind of sound is it? If it's eh eh eh it might be wind as other people have said. Otherwise I would get it checked out by a dr - it can be an indicator of something more serious.

Ooh my DD did that. Do you think it could be silent reflux? If she is upright when you are holding her and then flat in her moses basket and pram then this is a possible explanation. The sound my duaghter made was a cross between a grunt and a squeak. Really hard to explain! But it was definitely discomfort. 6 months later and a ton of medication tried and failed it turned out to be cmpi! Definitely go and see GP, some infant gaviscon might do the trick if you think it is that.

Every newborn I have come across grunts. They also sniffle, snort and make all sorts of nasal sounds that aren't crying.

Completely normal in a normal, healthy newborn.

Certainly not unreasonable to consider reflux. But not necessary to automatically assume on the basis of completely normal sounds a newborn makes.

Fate - grunting can be very normal, or a sign of wind/reflux. Or something very serious. My newborn grunted and had mottled skin and that was the only sign of sepsis we had in her until she stopped feeding and had to be rushed to a and e with heart failure. It's important to really listen - to when they are doing it (lying down, upright, on the in breath or out breath) and the actual sound (if it's eh eh that's newborn grumbles).
99% of the time it'll be wind- but people should be aware it can be more.

Op go to the gp if you are unsure - no one will ever mind reassuring you over a newborn

So can anything Inneedofadvice20172234?!

Crying is normal. Or can indicate something wrong. Or indeed something serious. All babies who cry shouldn't be sent to the doctors.

"Grunting in a newborn isn't ever normal" is completely and entirely incorrect and untrue. I was merely correcting that false bit of projection.

A baby with reflux may grunt
A baby with reflux may not grunt
A baby who is healthy may grunt
A baby who is healthy may not grunt

I have used a maternity nurse who does a lot of sleep related troubleshooting and she told me:

• 90% of her cases with newborn babies relate to wind/insufficient burping;
• 90% of her cases with 3-6 month babies relate to overtiredness.

My DD started sleeping very well in the Moses basket (and later - in the cot) after I learnt how to burp and swaddle her. Of course, it is not a panacea but it may be worth winding the baby for longer and trying to use different techniques (on the shoulder, on the knee, etc).

I'd dispute that.

I would say about 80% plus of the issues involving a newborn not settling/ sleeping well are feeding related - poorly established feeding routines or techniques.

(and the vast majority of the rest are fourth trimester related)

Fate - grunting -proper grunting in a newborn is a sign of serious illness - its a red flag in fact. Making little noises isn't. Unless you are a dr and prepared to give proper medical advice don't say ignorant things on this thread. Look at the paediatric traffic light system of the NHS and you'll see. We had a GP tell us our baby's grunting was 'normal' - they were just ignorant of newborns. It wasn't - it was a sign of sepsis.

www.westsuffolkccg.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/NICE-CG-160-Feverish-Illness-in-Children-Toolkit-080813-Final.pdf

Which is why it's important to distinguish between 'little noises grunting' and squirming and actual, grunting

We had a GP tell us our baby's grunting was 'normal'

Let's dissect why that happened.

Most babies make weird noises. Many babies cry a lot more than a parent was expecting. Many babies are harder work (to get to sleep, put down etc) than some parents were expecting.

So many parents, desperate for "an answer" for why having a newborn is not as tranquil as they were expecting, go to the GP.

Hence symptoms that can be red flags (a fact i am not disputing) is diluted by 50 gizillion (i exaggerate) anxious mothers of healthy-but-unsettled babies.

What happened as a result of the (second?) GP suspecting sepsis? I imagine a hospital appointment, blood test, lots of parental upheaval and stress, antibiotics?

So while that will be true in your world, in what you went through. What ypu are failing to realise that for your "grunting is a red flag", there will be dozens of "grunting might be mild reflux", or "grunting looks like significant reflux". Then hundreds (?) of perfectly healthy babies who are just unsettled.

It is completely unreasonable that the NHS should be expected to treat every one of those cases like yours, because it might be.

And most significantly, if parents had more reasonable expectations of what babies do, then the GP surgery would be less full of the worried well, so GPS can more accurately spot the red flags.

Projection.

You are projecting Inneedofadvice20172234, based only on your own experience without appreciating the wider view. Happens all the time on threads on the sleep board relating to reflux.

FATE - agree but I was not referring to all possible sleep related issues. People generally hire maternity nurses for troubleshooting after they have tried everything else and it has failed. With feeding, you can usually get decent help from MWs and HVs (at least, based on my limited experience). With burping, noone really tells you how important it may be if your baby has digestion issues. A lot of babies bring up wind easily but if they do not, burping techniques do become pretty important.

I am also skeptical when people point to the "fourth trimester" concept as the answer for everything. Of course, I read about it before giving birth but what I found afterwards is that a swaddled, fed, well burped baby can actually fall asleep in the Moses basket with very little help. I know my experience may be very limited but I have heard similar stories from my friends who used professional help after giving birth. They could not settle their babies. Their night nannies / maternity nurses could (and there was no crying).

My son was an incredible grunter and squirmer too (sounded like a farm yard animal!), every time he was put down, even if fast asleep. He only stopped when he was put on infant gaviscon for reflux. He sleeps lovely now and is 10 weeks old. Maybe take a trip to the Dr

I am also skeptical when people point to the "fourth trimester" concept

It depends, I suppose, on in what you view "the fourth trimester concept" as. See, I've read nothing on the matter (). But I hear it talked about a lot so do refer to it

To me, fourth trimester babies (ie the first 14 ish weeks) will be soothed by anything that mimics womb conditions.

You mention the swaddle - that would be a fourth trimester factors in my view. Likewise well fed and no air in the digestive system - both also fourth trimester factors.

I would try to imagine how baby felt in the womb and assume that an unsettled, upset newborn could do with mimicing those conditions. So for example:

• in the womb baby is never hungry. So feed more
• in the womb baby is cramped in a tight space. So use a swaddle
• in the womb baby sleeps mostly. So don't keep baby awake for too long
• in the womb baby was often swayed and moved around as you went about your day. So try gentle rocking movements.
• in the womb baby was never too hot or too cold
• in the womb baby was physically close to you and could feel you and hear you
• in the womb baby felt surrounded, secure, protected. So avoid baby feeling exposed.

So what you said: a swaddled, fed, well burped baby can actually fall asleep, to me is fourth trimester factors. That's the sort of things, if lacking, that I view as reasons a newborn might be distressed that is describe as "fourth trimester factors".

I'm not suggesting all babies need all of them. But if upu have an unsettled baby not sleeping well, if it isn't a feeding factor then the vast majority of the rest of the issues will be from failing to understand the importance of mimicing womb conditions for the newborn: Fed, comfortable, swaddled, subdued light/sound, cslm, gentle movement if needed.

I wouldn't change her nappy at night, if I were you. At 17 days, I'd expect her to wake 3 times a night for max 45 mins each time. Poor you!

FATE - fully agree with your last post. I have been thinking about "fourth trimester" proponents who believe parents should just accept their babies need to be held / carried around in a sling all the time. I personally believe there are ways to encourage independent sleeping from early on and tools like swaddle, dummy, white noise, good burping, etc often do wonders for newborns.

I personally believe there are ways to encourage independent sleeping from early on and tools like swaddle, dummy, white noise, good burping, etc often do wonders for newborns

Oh god yes!

Indeed this is what I am all about.

I use fourth trimester concepts as ways to promote independant sleeping - swaddle, dummy, frequent big feeds, hand-off and in-cot settling methods. But at their heart is the idea that a newborn wants conditions that mimic the womb...

... And if you don't offer those independant tools to recreate womb-like conditions to a newborn, you may well end up with a non-independant sleeper who has to be held/coslept with precisely because baby wasn't given the tool to sleep independantly in the fourth trimester.

Actually fate the first GP said that because he was negligent. We have a case against him.

It was a midwife actually that spotted the real issue - someone who actually understands babies and sent us straight to a and e. My mummy instinct made me ask to jump the queue there and be seen immediately - and good job too as her heart was failing and her liver had enlarged.

Grunting is a red flag symptom - parents should be aware of that.

My son was an incredible grunter and squirmer too (sounded like a farm yard animal!)

Funny you should say this - DS1 basically went through making noises like the whole farmyard - and was a terrible sleeper. Now he's nearly 7, he's a fantastic sleeper, but still wets the bed.

You've inspired me to take him to the doctor and get his breathing checked out - his dad has sleep apnea (which we had attributed to a deviated septum) and snores terribly, so perhaps it's all related and something can be done to help him.

Thank you everyone for your comments - I have read them all and taken loads of advice!

She has been a little better - we got some infacol which seems to be helping bring up her wind and she isn't as unsettled. Still isn't sleeping great, and is feeding around every two/three hours, but think I just need to accept that's how she is for now!

You've got lots of great advice here. Also you can prop up one end of her moses basket so she's a bit tilted which may help if she has wind.

One important thing to remember though... IT WON'T LAST! It doesn't matter whether she's 3 months or 3 years, it's a phase and won't last. Realising that saved my sanity.