Worried about GF effect

[buttercup]

I am worried that people take GF too far. I'm not against her ideas at all - I have used lots of them to establish a routine and turned to her many times to address feeding and sleeping problems. I have also used cc to great effect. However I worry that GF doesnt talk enough about the emotional needs of babies so that the smallest deviation in sleep causes us to panic. It seems perfectly normal to me that babies vary in their sleep patterns just like adults! I dont know many adults that sleep the same hours night after night without waking. I think she encourages parents to think too 'programatically' about babies' sleep and loose faith too quickly (just got disturbed from this coz mine woke up!). It upsets me when I read about parents of GF babies worrying about going to their children at night after sudden waking incase they create a bad pattern or thinking of cc after a couple of bad nights. Of course when wakefulness persists we all need to do something and I've been through this many times. But sometimes all thats needed is a few cuddles and a bit of reassurance and not a complete re-think of the whole routine. Is anyone with me or am I just taking her too seriously??

Buttercup - I'm sure your not on your own with this. I followed the GF plan with my baby for a while however didn't stick to it religously. Like you it helped me establish a routine and I refer back to it when I need to, which is only occasionally. I used to panic when my DS wouldn't sleep at preferred times but I think all babies are different ad have emotional needs like us. Now I just go with the flow. DS is very contented anyway so it's quite easy.

Buttercup - I know what you mean but as in everything people have to use their brains a bit... I am always surprised at the questions people post on Mumsnet about GF... often feel people have read the book VERY quickly and spend their time reading the routine and then ask questions which I feel are covered in the book in the many Q&As and the case studies.

GF does make it sound very regimental but she also uses very kind words about babies and how to treat them, I don't have time to quote but I have just grabbed my copy (this is the first edition in case somebody looks in their more recent one- don't know if page numbers match)
p37 on allowing babies to settle after birth "prime consideration should be your baby"

p40 "be guided by your baby"

p41 "important to follow your baby's lead"

p90 "all babies love to be cuddled, talked to and sung to"

p90 "Babies need lots of cuddling, but it should be always done when your baby needs it, not when you need it."

And somewhere else - can't find the page - she says that when the baby can't fall asleep to go to him and cuddle him and whisper... she does recommend avoiding eye contact for over stimulation.

I DO agree that the tone can (and is often) missunderstood but if one really takes the time to read and think about what she says... she is not a monster and she DOES have the baby's best interest at heart - IMO !

Avoid eye contact with your own baby?????
She doesn't have any kids, does she?
I find that eye contact, the certainty that I am there for him, is one of the things that settles ds fastest!

susanmt, it appears you have read pupuce's message very selectively...

When you are attending a crying baby who doesn't settle when it's late in the night ... Susanmt ! Why am I not surprised at your reaction and why am I not surprise you would not understand

It is so hard to avoid eye contact with a little poppet who is practically bobbing up and down in his cot trying to catch your eye - it used to make me laugh too much. But I did also find that eye contact used to stir him up too much for him to get back to sleep very easily - eye contact and facial expressions is lively and invigorating conversation for a small baby! Though, of course, all babies are different and yours (susan) obviously is fine with eye contact.

I don't follow GF and I think sometimes it is very obvious she has never had a baby. It's the initial stages of hyper-love, hyper-adoration and hyper-worry etc she doesn't seem to understand - in that state it is often impossible to let a child fuss and settle or cry in the night. However, 9months on, I have a rather more Gina-ish attitude to ds's crying, and will happily leave the room knowing that it's very often just his very brief prelude to a nice sleep. I do also very much agree with Buttercup that some people think GF is God (not you Pupuce) and panic desperately if their child sleeps differently to her book. I have been reading the Nanny Knows Best Book ( from my daughter's school fete) and that's interesting too. She was an ancient nanny trained in the thirties I think, but she says he always put her babies down for a morning rest, but let the afternoon be guided by the child, which is pretty much what I do. Some of her stuff is madly out of date but some is sweet and interesting. Much more liberal than I thought she'd be -even let her charges sleep with her after a nightmare etc.

Bossykate - that's because I agree with all the rest, and even as a first time mum I didn't need a book to tell me that! I managed to be sensible, find a routine which worked for me and dd, and have now managed to find a totally different routine which works for me, dd and new ds.
Buttercup - I'm kind of glad you started this - I am in a complaints procedure with my HV at the moment about her handing this book out to every new mum, and it had always struck me - if GF is so good, why are so many problems coming up on mumsnet all the time about it??
It's like all these things - some people like it, others dont. Some peoples babies work to it - others dont. SOme people want their baby in a routine, others arent so worried.
I have 2 things I currently want my children to be - happy, and adaptable. And I am afraid that I know a few people with GF babies and adaptable is not a word I would use to describe them, I am afraid.
And eye contact with that little, loving face is one of the joys of my life, even at bedtime, and I love holding a sleeping baby. I want to be able to do that with out the guilt I see in some of the gf mums I know.
And I did all this with my dd and she is 2+5 months now and goes off to bed without a whisper sometime between 7 and 8. SO it certainly hasnt caused any sleep probs in my house
Sorry - I really DO respect why people choose to do this routine with their kids. I just don't want to be told that it is the only right way, and although this is rare on mumsnet it has happened to me and others!
And I'll probably be back looking for advice when I finally meet the HV who has got it all wrong, according to pupuce!!!

And Pupuce, I don't really understand the tone of your post? I attend a crying baby in the middle of the night every night at the moment. I look him in the eyes as I feed and tell him I love himas he drifts back to sleep - so I certainly DO underatand!!

It's interesting, because of my friends who have had babies recently, the ones who want a routine tend to be more stressed and feel like failures if the tiniest blip occurs, which does make me sad. I too loved to hold my sleeping son (though now he wants to go in his cot and have a good lie down instead) and will never forget how lovely that was. My GF devotee friend (who has lovely children BTW) used to sound very worried when I told her he sometimes slept with me, or that I fed him in the night, and said I was making a rod for my own back etc, but now he's a perfect angel... I do think GF makes some good points, but it is the extremely regimented style of the book that bothers me.

Thing about GF is that she can be OTT but most of her advice is sound common sense. I followed her routines for sleep and feeding, and as for going from breast to bottle, her advice worked a treat! But other bits of advice such as the avoiding eye contact I chose to ignore. And every now and then as a treat to myself I would let dd fall asleep in my arms.

I think that is the key to GF, take some of her advice on board and ignore some of it, isn't that the same with all these parenting books?

I said on another GF thread that confident mothers hated GF and less confident ones loved her. But once mothers have been using her for 6 months or so they find their own confidence and start to chop and change bits. That's why I would never not recommend any parenting book to anyone, you might not need it but they might.

I am a first time mother. We are 18 months down the line now, and I did need a book to help me, you see I was not a natural mother. I have no sisters, my mother died, none of my girlfriends had any children, I thought that babies slept 23 hours a day for some time, so with the demand breast feeding and the shock and grief at my loss of my former life I found Gina Ford to be a friend. My HV told me later that my house was so lovely that she knew there would not be any problems ...........

My new friends have children all of whom have done whatever they feel is best for their wellbeing; as I did for my child. Do you know, I never critised them at all (nothing to find fault with) and I adore holding mine just as he is drifting off; smelling his hair and the skin on the back of his neck, and just because it's 6.45pm guess what - I hold him some more whispering sweet words of love. Mind you Gina did not tell me to do this - I worked it out. I think things can be misunderstood in black and white, and much like mumsnet the smile in the voice is lost in the black and the white.

WE all do what we do to the best of our ability, but why oh why do us Gina Ford mums have to go on explaining why we do things her/our way. I would never dream of, and I hope that others who choose this way would NEVER critisize anyone. Happy and contented children is what we all want, and surely how we attain this is slightly irrelevant? I really hope that you have not come up against this bigotry on Mumsnet Susanmt.

You've just said what I meant but much more eloquently charliesmummy!

Susanmt : for the sake of clarity - I meant : I did not expect you to understand GF.
I am aware that you have not read the book and burned it when offered so I am only saying that as you have not personnally read her whole book and "understood" where she was coming from and why she was saying these things... you could not understand a quote out of context.

Oh and another thing, why can't someone who has never had kids write a book about parenting? People who have not had kids are often the least judgemental, most complimentary, less biased people I've met when it comes to kids. I chose my female GP because she had no kids, she doesn't make comparisons of dd and other kids her age, she doesn't have this superior air of knowing best, she doesn't criticise my methods. Instead she asks me how I am coping, if there is anything she can do, etc. At last someone who is interested in the mother as well as the child! I think that is where GF is coming from too, she knows babies like to cry in the middle of the night, but she also knows that mothers need their sleep in order to be functional the next day, it's a case of balancing the two needs.

Susanmt : for the sake of completeness and clarity- what does your sentence mean ? (the last bit of course)
And I'll probably be back looking for advice when I finally meet the HV who has got it all wrong, according to pupuce!!!

I think you've got me mixed up, pupuce. I have read the book right through. I took it with me last week when I had my meeting with the practice manager about our HV who is handing this out as if it was the only book there is on parenting. I had the book given to me by a GF devotee friend who was always telling me it was 'best' for my children, but I stopped short of the ritual incineration someone else did. (although I was tempted!!) I also did read it, cover to cover, and although I found her style scarey and regimental and it would not do for me, I did find it had some interesting information, and can understand why some people like it. It's just not for me.
What I find hard to beleive (and I don't have the book now as I left it at the surgery as part of my complaint, so I'm not 100% sure about this) is her claim that she has never failed.
I know GF is controversial and I have not found the rigid adherence and stuff about it on mumsnet that I have in 'real' life, thank goodness. I may well come back to you for clarification about some stuff the HV is saying which I dont think is in the book, once my complaint goes further, if you don't mind?
Thanks

You (or maybe it was bloss, come to think of it???) put me right when I said our HV was putting about that GF said no bedtime stories. You know it far better than me!

Are you not the Susan whose friends stayed over and talked GF all day and then sent the book a few days later ??? That must be another susan... sorry then !

Are you not the Susan whose friends stayed over and talked GF all day and then sent the book a few days later ??? That must be another susan... sorry then !

No that was FP - sorry... but you did participate in that thread so that's maybe why I confused the 2 of you.
Sorry

Excuse me for interrupting, and its probably not my place as I have never read GF...However...

I have 2 children and have never been too concerned about routines, just so long as I get some sleep, I am happy to have them into my bed, cuddle them when they sleep etc. My DS slept through at 4months, my DD is 14months and still doesn't sleep through. It's not ideal, but we're getting there

My point is, as susanmt has said, babies are different and i don't believe there is one formula that will work with all of them...just like with anything else.

I also think that if you are worrying about the situation baby will pick up on it and it'll make matters worse.

Well, there u go, thats my opinion FWIW

well said, rhubarb and charliesmummy!

I didn't buy any books when ds was born...too busy combing the sales racks at the gap (not)...but I was given a used copy of Dr.Spock from 1985 as a joke from a childless friend. It has proved invaluable. He is so reassuring about everything. I have quite a few friends who call me up to get me to read them his opinions on various things. Also, my father ran into the man who had been my paediatrician when I was a child and he gave my father a copy of a book he has written called Everyday Paediatrics For Parents (Grossman). It is brilliant. It gives really down to earth explanations of baby/childhood diseases/ailments/rashes etc. I am constantly using it to look things up to decide whether or not it is serious enough to warrant braving my gp/a&e etc.

I don't own any how to guides, but I did buy a few pregnancy and birth books before my eldest was born and have just come across one of them this morning. This "definitive guide" to pregancy is by a Gordon Bourne and was originally published in the 70s. Just flicking through it now and had to smile reading his views on women and their role in society. Eg.

"In normal pregancy it is not usually recommended to work after the 29th week. A lot of women argue, however, that they have a sedentary occupation two minutes' walk from home and might as well go there and bash at the typewriter as stay at home and scrub the floor. Providing they are happy and the pregnancy is normal, there is no real reason why younger women should not continue to do a sedentary job, particularly in their first pregancy"

BRILLIANT