Utterly failing to settle nearly-nine-month-old in cot

[AgathaCrispie]

As succinctly as possible:
Almost 9 months old, previously always fed to sleep, can no longer get her from boob to cot without waking her, so need to settle her cot. Utterly failing at this. She's never taken a dummy and we cannot (I have tried to find a way! ) get the cot bed in our room, nor can I fit myself beside her in the nursery (hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'll buy better furniture next time/not have a kid till we can afford a bigger house so the nursery isn't in the box room).

We are working on establishing a snuggly toy, but we're just not there yet. I have been trying a calming hand on the chest while she goes to sleep but she: wriggles, kicks, rolls, does press ups, plays with my fingers, tries to eat my arm. She's way too active to fall asleep but holding her down feels like a wrestling match. I have tried just sitting quietly by the cot but she just sings/shouts at me, rolls over repeatedly and beams at me, then gets cross and starts yelling.

She's also been waking in the night for the past two months (previously sleeping through from very early on). I have just fed at these times because she usually wakes crying, and anything else (cuddling in cot, picking her up) doesn't quell the crying - it just keeps going and escalates till she's fully wide awake and then we start the repeat of the going-to-sleep performance. She tends to wake at 3 and at 5, and so while the first one may be hunger, I don't think the second one is.

I feel like everything I try (shushing, patting, quietly sitting, cuddling, hand-on-chest (or back, or side, or whichever bit I can reach as she rolls towards me/away from me/twizzles round in circles)) just makes her more lively and, if already crying, angry. I hate sitting next to her listening to her cry. This feels just like cry it out, but with me in the room instead of outside it. Feeding calms her down, and sends her straight off to sleep but then she wakes up when I try to put her down. I have to stop doing it, but other than sitting with her while she howls for an hour I don't know what to do.

That wasn't actually very succinct...

Oh dear. You can't even move a chest of drawers out of either of the rooms?

In your situation, given the complete lack of alternate options, I would cosleep.

I wouldn't choose to cosleep. I'm not a natural cosleeper and not a fan. But often it's not about parental choose anymore, it's about necessity and the child's needs.

Given you have already covered all of the usual suggestions for getting baby to sleep independantly, I can see you options as:

• be sleep deprived, cope best you can on the little sleep you are getting and keep cot in nursery and you in and out settling

• do the settling in your bed with baby, so at least you can side off. Turf DH out of the bed if necessary, or the 3 if you share

• leave baby to cry

I would cosleep. Even though I didn't want to because I view it as the leader of 3 evils.

doze* off

Oh bugger. I was hoping their might be some secret technique I hadn't thought of. It's so frustrating when she's obviously tired but bent on partying!

I'm going to do another week of trying to settle her in her room to see if things improve at all (I haven't been consistent so far - I need to be but it's so hard to be strong at 4am!) Then DH is on the sofa in guess...

There's no way we can get her back in our room. I knew you'd suggest that and believe me, between the walls and alcoves and stupid massive cot bed - it's not possible. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and next time I'm getting a space saver cot instead of a bedside crib. But it's too late now!

Oh fudge!

• there

Is she getting enough sleep in the day? I found that when I sorted day time sleeping the night fell into place. You're probably talking about 3 hours daytime sleep overall at this age (1 hour nap and a 2 hour nap). I achieve those at first by pushing in the buggy but felt it was worth it to get the night time sorted out. This too shall pass!

No, she isn't, MrsNucky. It's not terrible, but a bit up and down. She naps on the bouncer but since everything went to pot it takes a long while to get her off. She will usually do a 40 minute one and then maybe an hour-hour and a half - but it's quite changeable. I struggle to get a third one in, because if she hasn't been awake long she just won't go off, even if last nappy was short. I could spend all day just trying to get her off for next nap. It's easier if we do stuff to wear her out, but that makes it harder to fit a third one in! She's perky enough, and not massively sleep deprived but I do think things might be better if I could persuade her off more easily/often. But we just have the same problem at nap time! If I feed her sleepy she'll stay asleep in bouncer, but that's not helping the feed-sleep association. Sling and pushchair only work if she's beyond knackered and she'll wake up after 40 minutes even if we're still moving.

I used a sleep consultant to settle my (then) 5.5 month old daughter. As she was young, I didn't use CC to train her but the sleep consultant gave me information on spaced soothing and cry it out so I could weigh up all the options. One of the things that stuck with me most from it is the part about consistency - if you give in after a certain point, baby starts to learn how long and loud they need to shout for until you will go to them. They will then continue to shout for this long (or longer) so you give in.

I'm not suggesting you go down the CC route (certainly no judgement from me if you do choose that option though) but if you do decide to let her cry, have the time you will leave her for in your head, use a stopwatch and stick to it. Otherwise the inconsistency means she will have cried for nothing

Riddles26 what did you do if I don't mind me asking? I'm contemplating the need for sleep consultant too as I just think I'll not 'see it through' otherwise as I can't bear DS crying (wish I was tougher 😕) DS is 7months and breast fed but settles at bedtime with dummy. However he wakes 1-2hourly all night and will only settle if I feed him back to sleep. He's still in my room too but maybe I just need to go cold turkey and get him in his own room and night wean 😱

She gave us a routine to follow for feed and sleep times and a choice of settling strategies. As my daughter was younger, I chose to use PU/PD. It's not completely tear free if baby protests but you are responding to tears and comforting them. It takes longer than any CC method and requires perseverance but she made us fill out logs for every sleep and nap while we were going through the training and talked on the phone on alternate days to discuss them.

Although instinct always tells us when baby needs us because of pain etc, I also learnt a lot about all her different sounds and whinges from sleep training and listening to her before responding immediately. I've learnt that when she wakes up crying, her sleep isn't finished and I need to soothe her back to sleep. If she wakes whinging, she needs to settle herself to sleep and me being there just escalates the whinge into full on tears. When she wakes happy, she will not go back to sleep.

I was in a terrible state before using her (midst of sleep regression and non-napping baby from outset). The difference has been indescribable and I enjoy everything about parenting since we resolved sleep issues.

She didn't tell me anything I hadn't read in books but it's the way she put it together and tailored it to us that made it work. Personally, it also helped having to account for all your actions and for someone to explain how not following certain aspects impact on later sleep in the day.

My daughter is breastfed and still in my room. She sleeps a 8-10 hour stretch, has a feed then goes back to sleep and I haven't night weaned to achieve that, just removed the breast for comfort at night and she stretched out the feeds herself over a few weeks. From my experience you don't need to do the harsh crying it out in own room to achieve longer stretches for breastfed babies, especially once weaning

She didn't tell me anything I hadn't read in books but it's the way she put it together and tailored it to us that made it work. Personally, it also helped having to account for all your actions

I think this is a really good point - the physiological relationship between responsibilities of parent and consultant. The sleep trainer becomes accountable for their instructions and the parent for their actions.

When a sleep consultant works out a plan with the parent, the parent can feel absolved some of the responsibility on the basis that if they fail, it's not their fault: "I did what you told me to and it didn't work". Equally the parent can see "we are doing X, Y and Z and the outcomes are clearly A, B and C" and is expected to analyse in a detailed way why deciding to stop something or do it differently.

I see these kinds of psychology here on this board, even though I'm just offering free advice.

I think the most significant benefit of a sleep consultant is not them having a Magic Answer, it is helping a parent really work through their expectations and realistic steps to get there, then to be accountable so that they have to follow through, or be accountable if they choose not to.

riddles26 - your sleep training was a lot gentler than I had imagined

Totally agree! Seems ridiculous that I want to consider a sleep consultant!...I need to get a grip and just sort it...but it's exactly as you point out..I feel a sleep consultant will 'hold my hand', reassure I am doing the right thing...and also...I will 'see it through' if I feel someone is going to be checking on me 😂
I consider myself to be a fairly level headed, educated person but sleep deprivation over months and months is making me doubt everything...my parenting skills mostly 😕
I'm so pleased to hear sleep training is achievable without night weaning tho. I was hoping to breast feed for about a year but I just can't see how I'll get any sleep if I continue...so I give me hope! I do try to settle DS with dummy before feeding him every wake...but he gets hysterical...guess I just have to persevere until he eventually goes back to sleep? DH and I were wondering whether he should deal with the night wakes to lessen the confusion? But that would mean moving DS back to his own room again 🤔

Seems ridiculous that I want to consider a sleep consultant!...I need to get a grip and just sort it

Not ridiculous at all, and no need for a grip I don't think.

There is real value in having a set of instructions provided to you. It's much like speeding up the process of learning through experience.

If I was a first time Mum and had the finances, I'd have much appreciated having the voice of experienced immediately to hand. Like if I could go back in time and talk myself through parenting my eldest as a baby. I wonder why I didn't want to be told what to do my my mum or MIL, preferring to do it my way? There must be more physiology in there to explore.

Anyway, I digress...

DH doing the settling might be an idea. Can he not swap beds with you, leave baby where he's currently sleeping? When I wanted to stop night time breastfeeding, DH and I swapped sides of the bed, cot stayed where it was.

Thanks Fate ☺️ Yea...do you think that will work? I can easy swop sides of bed with DH...he's happy to do all night wakings (knowing he will probably be up all night 🙈). Not sure if I'll be able to lie there and not intervene tho when poor baby is hysterical 😥 was contemplating a few nights on the sofa and letting DH have bed to himself with baby still in side cot? I would prefer him in our room for a bit longer if poss?

When you've fed to sleep do you put DD straight down? Can you stay sitting and hold her for a while up on your shoulder gently patting then put her in her cot once she's in a deeper sleep.

Do you have a nighttime routine, bath story etc in place?

Is she used to her cot? Can you put her in there in the day with a few toys with you with her, play peek a boo so she learns you come back when she's in there, then increase the time she's alone? You may have already tried it though.

was contemplating a few nights on the sofa and letting DH have bed to himself with baby still in side cot? I would prefer him in our room for a bit longer if poss?

Whatever you think best.

If you don't think you can leave him too it without interfering (ear plugs may help the worst of it), then sleep elsewhere.

If you want baby in own room, do that. Me and DH both like our bed too much to be wanting to be spending time out of it though. That's just us, you might be different.

DH nightweaned DC2 for me, it was before 6 months though and all we did was swap sides of the bed and keep the sidecar cot. Baby was soon (within a week or 2) sleeping through mostly and was ready to go into own room once consistantly sleeping through within a couple of months.

Thanks Fate. That sounds encouraging with your DC2!...I feel hopeful I can do this! DH is in from work and 'up for it' 🙈😂 Think we will start Fri night so we have 2 nights where he won't be at work the next day (hopefully 1st 2 nights will be the worst?!)
So...sorry to go on but just to clarify!
If I feed him before bed at 7ish then settle him with dummy..as I do now...then basically all wakes between 8pm-6am DH will settle with dummy? Or is that too long? Should I feed him up until say 10-11pm? X