Those who have sleep trained

[cantlivewithoutcoffee]

I wanted some advice from anyone who has sleep trained please.

I have a 7 month old daughter who was historically an awful napper (i.e. she wouldn't nap at all). Until 4 month regression, she would sleep well at night but napping would be hard work (usually impossible) to achieve. She was just too interested in the world to allow herself to sleep.

When the night sleep fell apart due to regression, we had to do something because she was so distressed with overtiredness and we used a sleep consultant who set us into a routine. Following her instructions to the letter worked and we got her sleeping at set times with practically no protest.

We are now a few months down the line and I have been adjusting her awake times according to her signals and age but I've found if we ever need to deviate from her routine to go out somewhere, everything falls apart - mainly because she is too damn alert and wants to see everything anywhere except her pitch black bedroom with white noise blaring loudly. If I put a shade on her car seat/pram, she cries before she goes to sleep which I struggle to deal with.

I naively thought that once we had followed the same process for months, she would go to sleep at her nap time because that's what she was used to doing at that time everyday and she would be tired but no luck. How does everyone else deal with this? I don't go out much at her nap times but sometimes it's unavoidable and if she doesn't sleep, she gets really cranky.

As for taking her out past bedtime, she also refuses to sleep. I almost always put her to bed then go out but there are rare occasions where we may need to go somewhere with her and it all becomes a big mess.

We have a few weddings to go to this summer and a holiday booked and all I can see myself doing is stressing about her (lack of) sleep right now. I want to enjoy these things but I can't see that happening as things are right now. Can anyone offer advice please?

The reason that she's not going through the night is she's 7 months old :)

Her routine looks great - especially for one so young. You alas have to accept that they don't nap on demand - well some do, I hear these mythical babies exist. You might be better going for a rough 2,3,4 system (down after 2 hours from first wake up, then once they're up from that down after 3 hours then 4 hours after last wake up is bedtime.) this lets you keep the rough structure but adjusts it for early waking etc.

You need to be flexible and adjust your expectations (I say that kindly, I know tone comes across badly via just text!) waking at 4 am is normal, waking at 8 is normal. Waking ten times a night is normal, sleeping through is normal.

Our ds was at the extreme end of the sleepless spectrum - we woke every 20 mins for almost a year and once an hour for another six months after that. Only now at 20m is he generally sleeping through. I know people who've had kids who still sleep like him at three years.

She sounds fine, you need to adjust - the ONLY thing that saved our sanity was just accepting that it was how it was and we had to work around it. I firmly believe that while good habits are very important, a LOT of sleepbis developmental. They get it when they get it. Sleep training can be a false dawn, because you habituated the child to a behaviour pattern, rather than them actually learning to sleep. When something changes (holidays, growing, etc) they still don't have the actual ability to sleep (because they never had it, only a behavioural adaption to circumstances as they were.)

I realise reading that back it sounds very 'suck it up' and believe me that is absolutely not the spirit it's intended in. But sleep is developmental, they get it when they get it and until they do, you just have to adapt.

Also listen to FATE- she is a wise lady ;)

Thank you FATE for all your fab advice - I've been on this board under many names. Ds is now 20m and actually likes sleeping. In his own bed. Amazing...

Thanks ladies.

Fate the sleep consultant said to aim for 7am wake up with 6.30 bedtime. I am content with 6-6.30 wake up (5am is too early though!) I want to work towards getting the 6.30 wake up nailed before I try move bedtime to 7-7.30 of that makes sense.
In terms of holidays, it's not prioritising our preferences - we are restricted by the hours the hotel we are staying at serves food so 11.30 lunch and 4.30 dinner unfortunately isn't an option for us. When at home, we do make the adjustments you suggested so we get meals together on weekends. If we can get pram naps, that will resolve the situation though.

Anatidae, I don't have any expectation for her to sleep through the night just yet :) Quite the opposite, in fact. I am content with her waking for feeds as she wakes, feeds then goes straight back to sleep so no problems there at all. I just want to prevent the odd 5am start from becoming a regular occurrence. I agree a lot of sleep is needed for development - this is why I need to work a way of making sleep happen when not following our daily norm - as she is such a resister of sleep, I want to work out how I'm going to deal with the situation before it arises

Sleep training can be a false dawn, because you habituated the child to a behaviour pattern, rather than them actually learning to sleep. When something changes (holidays, growing, etc) they still don't have the actual ability to sleep (because they never had it, only a behavioural adaption to circumstances as they were.)

Very insightful. I've not really put it into words like that before, but this perfectly describes my philosophy with teaching a baby/child to sleep.

Thank you FATE for all your fab advice - I've been on this board under many names. Ds is now 20m and actually likes sleeping. In his own bed. Amazing...

Thank you for your kind words Anatidae and great news about your son.

Loads of folks use several IDs on the sleep board and think I don't notice. (OP has also used several IDs). I don't know why. I assume to do with the wider use of mumsnet? Or maybe it's to do with how previous threads develop here. The benefit of hindsight might change people's perspective of my advice. Who knows? I rarely pay attention to username anyway, but usually recognise the habits of a child I've advised about before.

cantlivewithoutcoffee - you're sleep consultant is wrong on the wake-up time issue. (And whilst it got you out of rock bottom, is also not helping you enough to develop long term healthy sleep habits)

But my advice is free so maybe it's worth less than someone you pay? I don't know how much you are paying the sleep consultant - but he/she should be helping you develop some flexibility with baby, whilst still maintaining routine, structure and sleep associations.

Children cannot tell the time. So a child with healthy sleep habits (rather than forced behaviour associations) wouldn't realise that nap time is happening an hour earlier/later. As long as sleep associations are applied (cot, curtiains closed, sleeping bag, comforter etc) - there is a good two hour window between "just got tired" until reaching "over tired".

While this doesn't solve the sleeping on the move issue, it allows for some flexibility for things like holidays and special occassions. It also means that baby can do things like catch up on lost sleep.

The wedding for example. I would shift all baby's naps an hour (or more, if I think child can do it) later for the day. This might give me 2 or 3 hours for bedtime to be later. Then the following day, move naps earlier, say half an hour less awake time. This allows for baby to catch up from the out-of-routine day previously.

What you sleep trainer is doing is exactly what you paid him/her for. She got your baby sleeping at the time you paid her. That's actually quite easy - know the timings that allows for as little sleep as possible but avoiding over tired, so getting to sleep is easier because child is very, very tired. Gina Ford's book is based on this principle and it is usually the reason behind controlled crying (or call it "delayed soothing") working too.

These are very different to encouraging plentiful sleep by teaching healthy sleep habits though. But the long term view tends to not show the quick fix results sleep consultants are required to provide.

Oh gosh FATE that is such rubbish about sleep training, I don't even know where to begin.
You yourself advocate for unsustainable and possibly dangerous methods such as extended naps in a bouncy chair and you have no qualifications whatsoever.
I would not be so quick to diss the advice of a professional.

Thanks Fate - you make an interesting point on how sleep consultants work. I can't fault the sleep consultant in that she got me out of a tough situation and I didn't need to use cc to get there. I'm guessing my situation is very similar to another poster but I am new here previously have posted on another parenting website if you happen to be on there.

I have the exact sleep associations you have described so I will try to shift her naps half an hour later one day and see if it works. In this instance, what do you do if your child wakes from their nap early? Do you put them back to sleep or attempt another nap a bit later? Do they go to sleep without resistance the next day when you reduce their awake time?

I don't mind whether I achieve sleeping on the move or adjust the nap times for occasions and holiday. They are not a regular occurrence but I just want to be sure I avoid the downwards spiral of overtiredness

Lapin, having used a similar routine yourself, would you suggest I stick with my initial plan of her napping in the pram whilst abroad/at a wedding as the occasions are few and far between?

I do have the positive associations that Fate mentions and she goes to sleep with minimal fuss almost all the time. If I am putting her to sleep in a new environment (such as a relatives house), I close curtains, sleeping bag, follow ritual, turn on white noise and lie with her until she falls asleep. If at home, I leave her to fall asleep alone

If just shifting the day an hour or two will help, then do it - it's no different to going to a different time zone for a week or two.

With the caveat of course that it will take a few days for the shift to become established BOTH ways - from my experience baby jet lag takes roughly a day or two per hour (like adult!)

Get her on holiday schedule starting a week before you go - then ease back after. As long as the structure of the day remains the same then the absolute time isn't as relevant.
Gro company blackout blinds are very good - you stick them on the windows with suckers. We have almost 24 hour daylight where I live now until mid July and I use these - amazon does them cheap. We have normal blackouts and curtains too but broad daylight at 1 am is not conducive to good sleep

I have the exact sleep associations you have described so I will try to shift her naps half an hour later one day and see if it works.

I would go for moving the nap earlier initially, not later if you want to start being flexible.

What is critical is the how tired baby is to go to sleep. The best possible time for baby to go to sleep is at the "just got tired" point. This is before you will see any tired signs, it's almost like anticipating my child will be tired in half an hour or an hour's time.

Depending on the childs age/development, there is likely to be a window of about 1-2 hours where the child is varying degrees of "tired" before being an over-tired hysterical mess.

Sleep trainers will err on the side of being more tired at nap time (they will ususlly advocate cutting naps short for this purpose). It's so that the child puts up less resistance, given they are so tired.

So I would suggest from your routine, that pushing naps later is going to put baby into being over tired. Then you get all the symptoms of over tired - restless sleep, waking easily, harder to settle. You are on the fine balance between naps without tons of settling effort needed, and over tired.

It's why your routine needs to be so strict. This isn't you being a neurotic FTM - it's because your consultant has given you a routine where baby is getting just-enough sleep. Not plentiful sleep. If you mess with timing, there is no buffer-zone of "sleep I can miss now but catch up on later", because baby isn't getting enough sleep for that. So miss your timing, and baby is over-tired and clingy, as you have found.

I'm waffling, but if you want to introduce more flexibility, so that to get baby more sleep, not less asleep. Let baby go to earlier, wake at same time. Or go to sleep at normal time but don't wake from nap. See what happens. As long as you have established sleep triggers in place (and they actuslly actually do work to get baby to sleep), it doesn't matter uf you allow for a day with a 10am-12pm nap then a 4pm-6pm nap so that you can go to the wedding at 7pm and do bedtime at 10pm (or whatever).

Fate, I can see what you are saying and rationalise the theory but I struggle to get her to sleep the amount in the aforementioned routine.

She usually wakes by 35 mins for her morning nap although I aim for 40 minutes. I aim for 2.5 hours for her long nap but she tends to wake around the 2 hour mark, sometimes even earlier. She wakes happy and playful and is content gurgling to herself until I go to her so it's not that she's grumpy and tired. She resisted a 3rd nap with all her strength which is why we decided to drop it. I wouldn't know where to begin to get her to sleep more than she is.

Putting to sleep earlier just results in earlier wake up from the nap and no extra sleep (have tried this when we have had to deviate from routine for any reason).

She resisted a 3rd nap with all her strength

Then I would suggest that the sleep associations you mention are not as established as they could be.

For comparison, my youngest sleep at 7 months (on a week day) was:

6.30-7am wake
9am-11am nap (woken at 11am)
1pm-3pm nap (woken at 3pm)
30-60 minute power nap (in bouncy chair while I made dinner) around 4.30-6pm
7.30-8pm bedtime (not sleeping through)

But before these longer naps were established, my average day night look like this (all timings give or take)

6.30am wake
7.45-8.30am nap
10-10.45am nap
12-12.45pm nap
2-2.45pm nap
4-4.45pm nap
6-6.45pm nap
8pm bedtime

So that's an average of 6 naps a day (it would actually depend how long the naps were) before bedtime.

So in your routine, with a 6am wake and a first nap you know is going to be short, I'd revert back to the frequent nap structure. I would have a nap at 8am, then another 10am ish. It then depends on what happens at the second nap. If it's another short nap, I'd go for another at 12pm. If your 10am nap is a longer 2h nap, waking at 12, then I'd try for another nap around 3pm. This would be very much a play-it-by-ear trial and error thing. I don't know how your child would react.

But having said that, it goes completely against what your sleep trainer is saying.

6am to 9.20am is a massive a wake time first thing in the morning for 7 month old. This is the easiest nap of the day too. I wouldn't want more than 2 hours, especially so if I knew the nap would be short.

The 10.30am-12.30am awake time is more reasonable 2h. Then 2.30-6.30 is doable before bedtime, but it is stretching to the limits of awake time. There is no wonder you've been given a 6.30pm bedtime, baby is unlikely to make even half an hour longer than this. I bet baby would go to bed (for the night) at 5.30pm if you did bedtime then.

It seems to me you said to the sleep consultant "tell me a a way that will mean my baby will sleep regularly" and that is exactly what you have got. Put me under pressure for immediate, quick-fix results and I'd probably suggest the same timings. But it doesn't actually mean these are the best timings for your individual child to get plentiful sleep in a healthy way. It gets your baby sleeping. That is the beginning and end of it. It doesn't look at the bigger picture.

Look up 2,3,4 structure. That first awake period is too long

Thanks both.

Anatidae, fortunately our time difference when going on holiday is just 2 hours. The sleep consultant gave me similar advice to what you have said on adjusting her to a new timezone when we are there. I am fairly confident about managing this and we will be taking our trusted groblind :)
I will look into the 2-3-4 routine, I like that it is more baby-led than the rigid routine I follow so can be adjusted for days such as weddings.

Fate, I am open to giving the regular naps you have suggested a try but I am not sure if she will respond. I've found with experience that if I put her down for naps soon after waking (even if she only slept 10 minutes so naturally I would shorten awake time), she resists sleep harder and harder. It's like she thinks I want her to sleep too much!

Fate's babies are on the very upper limit of the sleep needs spectrum.
I have worked for a sleep consultant and I've seen hundreds of babies' routines, troubleshooting etc. Your routine is absolutely great please don't second guess yourself or the advice you've been given.

Ok thanks Lapin. If she doesn't wake up pre 6.15am, and naps as per the routine timings, she doesn't show signs of overtiredness and is generally content and playful so I have been happy with the results. I posted more to work out how to apply some flexibility and to confirm there is nothing in her timings that is likely responsible for super early waking

Over the next month, I will try increase pram naps and also give the 2-3-4 routine a go in the hope that one can be used for days where it's going to be difficult to stay home for all naps.

I'm hoping the early starts will become fewer rather than more frequent in the mean time!

I agree the OP DD has a great routine.

Sleep consultants and maternity nurses generally suggest bed time of 6.30pm on the assumption that initially it takes around 15-30 min for babies to settle. The "real" sleep time is therefore 7pm to 6.30/7.00am. If a baby falls asleep quickly (mine now does), you would normally shift the bedtime closer to 7-7.30pm.

I am also also about to go on holidays with my 5 month old DD who loves her routine and her cot. My current plan is to use pram for lunch time naps. I know there will be grumbling. I regularly go out for lunch with my DD napping in the pram but she is really not a fan of naps on the go. She can do it but she makes it very clear she prefers her cot.

Re: dinner - we will probably get a babysitter from 7 to 9pm. A lot of hotels can arrange it these days. If it has been one or two evenings, I would have used a pram as well but since it is the whole week, I will try to make it easier for my DD.

I'm confused about the 5.45 thing?

She's 7 months old, why does she need a 45 min lead in time to bed? If that's what's causing the problem drop it all for the holiday. She can have a bath at any other time of the day and she certainly doesn't need a massage every night!

I've found with experience that if I put her down for naps soon after waking (even if she only slept 10 minutes so naturally I would shorten awake time), she resists sleep harder and harder

Which takes me right back to initial posts that "a child with healthy sleep habits (rather than forced behaviour associations) wouldn't realise that nap time is happening an hour earlier/later".

I think you have ritualized behaviour linked to sleep. And also that she is sleeps only very tired, not just-tired. This is not the same as healthy sleep habits - which would mean that as long as the child needs sleep, she will sleep.

This is why you will struggle to alter your routine and it needs to be rigid and inflexible to work. As PP says above, please don't second guess yourself - you don't have the foundations in place to change things from your routine. It will all go wrong if you start changing from your routine, as LapinR0se says.

Moving to a more flexible way would involve a complete rethink of your parenting philosophy and have realistic expectations (that sleep wouldn't suddenly click to the new way). It's the same as trying to get a cosleeping, attachment patented baby into a GF-type routine. Both options work, but a parent hoping to move from one to another needs a strong talking to about realistic expectations.

I would think long and hard about if you really want a baby led structure. Or if you just like the idea of it.

Your ridgid routine works now. If you change it, things will get worse before they get better. Changing it may initially take you back to how you felt before you got the sleep trainer in. Can you remember how you felt when sleep was so out of your control? Keep that in mind.

Accepting that you need an inflexible routine giving just-enough sleep, may be the right answer for you.

If it's any consolation I did sweet fuck all with my kids for the first two years. Naptimes and bedtimes were God.

Yeah we got comments from family members that we were creating a rod for our own back etc etc. But our kids were sleeping through V reliably from early on (the 2nd earlier than with the first as I made some mistakes with him) whereas their flexible/late bedtimes thing did them no favours in the long run. It just meant they didn't have to adjust THEIR routine that much when they had babies. But sooner or later they got sick of the kids not being reliable sleepers but the kids were having none of it.

You talk a lot of sense ElspethFlashman. Bedtime can be fully parred back to 10 minutes or so, if needed.

I would just accept that baby's sleep is going to be more stressful on holiday (hell, holidays with little ones are always more stressful than pre-baby days) and just accept that. Do the best you can while there and then re-establish the normal routine when home.

It won't be perfect. Parenting never is.

Some babies need less sleep - my two had both happily dropped to one so by 1 and totally stopped napping by 2. They would only nap in a blacked out room or at a pinch in a moving car. So yes I was tied for a while but it was worth it as they slept well in their cots etc. Both were ebf for a year and had night feeds until 8 months and 11 months respectively. Slept through 7-7 by 11 months and 14 months (refluxer).

Don't sweat it:)

Elspeth, I'm happy to minimise my social life to work around her too. I believe we will also reap the rewards as she gets older. Both husband and my respective siblings are getting married later this summer (one of which is in Europe). These are events we couldn't miss or minimise so I need to try find a way that we can manage her and the weddings. I may be thinking too much into it but would prefer to overplan rather than it all fall apart!

Fate, I'm going to stick with my routine as it is because it works for my daughter and I don't get a cranky baby. The amount of sleep she gets fits into the recommendations for a 7 month old from every reputable source I've read so I am content with the amount of sleep she usually gets when we follow it and I don't have any need to deviate from it frequently.

Before using the consultant, I spoke to a few parents of children who are now in primary school that had used her and all spoke highly of her services. They all said that the good sleep habits she instilled carried forward until they were older and they didn't have any major sleep problems. Hopefully I will have the same outcome.

I'm under no illusion that holidays are going to be the stress-free ones we had before having her but I am also aware that she is more relaxed if I am relaxed. I will be a lot more relaxed if I have a plan on how I will manage her sleep whilst away - I will do pretty much anything to avoid her slipping back into that downwards spiral of overtiredness as I know too well how tough it is to climb back out of.

I think 2 hours 45 is about right for 7 month old.

I've never heard of a 7 month old needing 4-5 hours a day. That's what newborns-3/4 month olds need.

Winter my daughter also falls asleep within 10 minutes of being put down. I will try the slightly later lunchtime nap as suggested by Lapin and put her down 10-15 mins later at night. Maybe I will be able to eliminate the pre-6am wake ups too (I can dream!!)

Amount of daytime sleep required is going to be linked to amount of night time sleep.

If had one (formula fed) who had been sleeping solidly 12h overnight for several months by 7 months old. 2-3 hours daytime sleep suited him perfectly. Fits in exactly with LapinR0se's experience with her babies formula fed from newborn. I'm not suggesting the routine is wrong. It's just assuming all babies will behave like a ff sleeping-thro baby.

At 7 months my DD (who's routine I give above) wasn't sleeping through. Not even occassionally.

Broken nights = more daytime sleep needed

Unbroken nights = less daytime sleep needed.

It's really not rocket science.