HV recommending weaning as solution to frequent night waking in 4 mth old but I'm not sure...

[lilysma]

Hi all, anyone got any ideas or experience about this? My 4 mth old is night waking every 30 mins - 2.5 hrs and very hard to settle again even after feeding (she's BF). The HV says to try starting solids, but I'm really not sure about this as all the literature suggests that this isn't effective and has its risks.

The thing is I'm completely desperate to do something about this as I'm becoming depressed through sleep deprivation, so the alternative is controlled crying (equally controversial!) as I've tried all the other 'gentler' methods.

Anyone have experience of starting solids at this age to deal with sleep problems?

4 months is a major growth spurt time. this is why lots of mums end up early weaning, because the normal daily routine and sleep pattern goes pear shaped.

have you tried offering more milk? you can tell early weaning is not the solution form the fact that there are tons of babies who don't sleep through and are even up to 2 or 3 years of age (without meaning to be negative!), so food does not equal sleep.

a fab book is the no cry sleep solution by elizabeth pantley. she helps you understand sleep patterns, develop new sleep associations, work out what activity levels your baby needs during the day, naps etc. al very gentle and ideal for a bf baby.

4.5 months is a tough age as they go through a growth spurt which means they feed more often, so I do sympathise. However, your HV is barking and years out of date. Milk has many more calories than any puree or baby rice. Night feeds are the way babies stimulate more milk production (something to do with hormones at night - and linked to why most women give birth at night. Although I can't remember the proper medical explanation, it's along those lines).

Thing is, HVs generally don't do much in the way of continuing professional development, so tend to be unware of changes in practice over the last decade or more. Amazingly.

Don't do it - babies' guts are designed to digest milk, not solids. Their guts are 'open' so particles pass through the cell walls to help absorb nutrients from liquids. If you feed solids, large particles of solid food will pass directly into the bloodstream, increasing the risk of food allergies, amongst other things. By six months, you can be sure that your baby's gut has 'closed' like an adult's so they can digest solid food. Unless your HV has seen inside your child's body, she has no way of knowing whether your baby's gut is open or closed (and sounds as if she's so out of touch she wouldn't even know about it anyway, daft mare).

I'm afraid controlled crying is out as well as it is not recommended for under six months. Cruel to leave a helpless baby who is completely dependent on you to meet their needs to cry. It's the only way they have to say 'hello mummy, I need something'. I can't remember why this changes at six months, but I'm 100 per cent sure that is the recommendation - I think they have reached a stage of development where they can settle themselves back to sleep then or something.

I do sympathise, broken sleep is horrid, but if you can, I'd just cut back on anything else you do and go with the flow for a few weeks. Sorry not to have a magic solution!

no - agree with dizzybint - milk is more filling that a couple of spoons of baby rice - have you tried a split feed before bath and bed as well as a dream feed???

bizzydint - sorry for the bad spelling

eeeeeeeeeeek !! no to solids IMO

lots and lots more milk, this is a growth spurt, it will end, and you will get through it

solids do not make your baby sleep through, the baby being ready makes it happen....hence you can get very young babies sleeping through, and some who don;t sleep until they are 18 months...food intake is not the answer

feed as much as baby wants, this will build up supply, as you know, and rest when you can, sleep when you can, and comfort yourself it will end! x

I agree about not starting solids. ould you be against giving formula? if not, she could have a split breast feed near bed time and aformula dreamfeed at 10ish.

no need for formula either. nothing wrong with just your breast milk. get that book i mentioned. best of luck!

Can you co-sleep so she can feed through her growth spurt and you can get some sleep?

Could she be teething?

thanks for all the replies. in answer to some questions:

have tried the pantley book but can't get past stage 1 of the withdrawal!

am feeding her as much as poss between about 5 and 8pm

she has never taken a bottle, so it is difficult to see how to give her formula

the real prob for me is not feeding her but the time she takes to settle again. sometimes we do co-sleep but this only works because she's latched on mopst of the time and it doesn't get me all that much deep sleep.

can anyone explain why no cc before six months? some of my friends have done it with no apparent ill effects. surely at six months they don't need you any less? i've also read that then is not a good time to do it due to separation anxiety. it does go against my instincts but I really feel i need to do something for my own sanity...

sorry for the long post and for seeming negative about suggestions. there always seems to be a reason why something won't work

oh, and she may be teething as she has red cheeks, drools a lot and gnaws and everything in sight, but this will go on for a long time, no?

Are you taking her off the breast awake or does she come off herself then waken again?

Have posted on your other thread.

I personally would take her into bed and let her feed while you sleep. Even though it is not a deep sleep it is some sleep which is better than nothing.

Do not waste your energies on trying other remedies IMO. If he is quiet feeding then do that for now. You might be fortunate like me and find that this stage does pass and that she will eventually sleep all night.

I asked the first question because I just fed mine again if they wouldn't settle. It is not unusual to need to do that.

Sounds like she may well be teething. At the risk of sounding cavalier, start chucking a bit of calpol down her. If that seems to help, then you know what it is, which I think always helps the stress levels, if not the sleep levels.

Yes, she will be teething on and off 'til she's 2, but my son had first teeth at 4.5 months and once the first one's broken through it's much better - they seem to get used to it.

If you are desperate, I can heartily recommend Medised - contains mild antihistamine which will help knock her out, as well as paracetamol for the teething pain. You could give it to her as you go to bed which should buy you 3/4 hours undisturbed sleep and help you cope a bit better. (Check it's suitable for baby of that age, though).

I can totally understand if you're not comfortable with this approach, after all, medicating a child who isn't sick is perhaps a bit on the dodgy side. BUT she doesn't have very many ways to communicate what's going on, and if she's in pain then a bit of calpol/medised WILL help. If it doesn't help, then another approach is needed. I sometimes use calpol as a "test" to see if my son is in pain when he's being particularly crochety...

This is a REALLY difficult time

There are SO MANY THREADS that start "My four month old's sleep has gone to pot..."

No one knows why but it seems REALLY common at this age

I also found that at four months the shock of being a mum and what it meant really settled in

I'd recommend going to bed at the same time as your baby for a week or so and seeing how that makes you feel

Things change - but slowly!

Controlled crying is generally not recommend for a child under 1 year these days

Many people would not recommend it at all, because there is no evidence that it is safe

This shitty bit doesn't last forever (the first year!)

Go to bed at 7 or whenever your baby does, and see if that improves the way you feel. Get some good novels and lie in bed for an hour reading them and then go to sleep at 8ish - I did this for most of the first year and it really helped me

I agree with edam. No to formula...no to solids.

I had the same experience when ds was 4 mths...I think it's a developmental stage. It's REALLY tough and you just have to find ways of getting more sleep yourself like sleeping when he is sleeping and co sleeping.

Food has nothing to do with it - my ds is now 7 mths and eats 3 meals a day and still wakes frequently for feeds - it's a COMFORT thing.

At some stage they need to learn to sleep on their own without the use of props such as boobs and rocking.

Have a look at the millpond book on sleep - some good thoughts on how to space night feeds etc. Ultimately I think it's a choice between the softly softly approach which may take some months of sleep deprivation or an approach which involves some kind of crying which is quicker but hard on the nerves. If you are at breaking point I would go for the latter...personally I waited until 6 mths because he was so little and a frequent feeder.

Also, talk to people about how you are feeling - my dh had no idea how bad things were affecting me - it's like a parallel world I was living in at night as well as working in the day.

good luck!

Hi

Sounds like your little one is teething. Sleep deprivation is equally hideous (I remember it well) so I can understand why you are becoming depressed.

For some reason alot of 4 month olds go through this. They are more awake, more active and usually going through a growth spurt and sometimes teething too. They need their Mum(or Dad) to comfort them at theses times. If it helps then I can recommend co-sleeping which worked like a dream for my DS and ensured I also got some sleep. There are various remedies out there for teething and you can give Calpol as well.

I'd really be wary about weaning - your little one is too young and your HV is out of date with this advice.

My ds was the same and I started weaning on the advice of my hv (didnt know about MN back then) Although it didn't do him any harm - and I continued to bf for another 6 mths - it also did not solve the sleeping issue, but once I had started I couldnt go back. For me, it didn't do what I wanted it to do. Certainly try some of the suggestions other MNers have given, and take heart: this stage seems like it lasts FOREVER when you are in it, but as your baby grows, he/she (?) WILL sleep more. It is hell while you are there, though - make sure you rest during the day (AND LEAVE THE DISHES!!!)

Thanks again for all the messages. After coming v close to starting controlled crying my dd seems to have sensed this and had a better night last night - only waking twice between 9 and 7 am and settling relatively easily, so I'm going to stick with it for a bit.

She ALMOST went to sleep from awake in the cot last night, but started crying after 15 mins of trying to settle herself. DH picked her up and soothed her and then soothed her in the cot with shsh, holding her hands down and she went off and stayed down for 3 hours. I did the same thing after feeding her again at 12 and it worked. Hurrah! I'm sure many of you have been down this road of optimism only to have it dashed a night or two down the road, but we have to live in hope, don't we...?

before you do cc on a four month old. find out more about what is changing in your baby's life. she was born with 25% of the brain capacity of an adult. she has very little frontal lobe. Babies are born neurologically incomplete. The first year of their lives is when mega brain development continues to occur.

these major developments in the brain plus teething and growth spurts are good reasons to reconsider sleep training a baby at an age where no one has ever recommended it happening. Sleep training an undeveloped brain just doesn't sit right on me.

I know you say that your friends have done it with no ill effects. Remember, in the 'competitive' world of child rearing, parents say all sorts of things for lots of reasons. not all of them to be competitive. And, if they really have sleep trained, how did they assess that it did their child no emotional or neurological harm? are they professionally qualified to do so or it is just going on the saying 'i know my baby better than anyone else'.

i know that i have made a crude outline of why you ought not do sleep training now. if you want to understand how babies sleep before 4 months and how it is changing now, i would recommend Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution. It explains it in easy to read terminology. Once you understand how your baby is developing you may be more empathetic on how she is learning about the world she lives in. It also has tons of advice on gentler methods of settling your baby - and 4 months is where she starts.

It is not a quick fix solution but it is kinder to you and your baby.

i would try some calgel on her gums... bet she's teething at that age.

don't start solids. it's not the answer and doesn't help them sleep through.

another vote from me for the millpond book - it is balanced and fantastic \link{http://www.mamatoto.co.uk/PRD_ProductDetail.aspx?CID=33&PID=1799/here} free delivery too with code KF1ZZ140 at checkout.

oops
here

Thanks for continued thoughts. Kiskidee, I have been trying the Pantley book for a month now and have never got past stage 1, until last nite! So am living in hope. Perhaps it is dd's way of telling me she doesn't want to be 'trained'?
Amidawish, have tried bongela, is calgel different?