Is Disappearing Chair/Gradual Retreat supposed to be crying-free?

[MaudGonneMad]

Or am I doing it wrong? Having a bad old time with my 6 month old, who since the 4 month sleep regression has lost her trick of sleeping 7/8 hr stretches at night. I really want to teach her to self-settle, as multiple night wakings are taking their toll on me. Also, if she wakes and I'm on a rare night out, she is inconsolable despite DH's best efforts.

She always feeds to sleep and refuses a dummy no matter how often/how many varieties I try.

I've tried gradual retreat the last few nights, sitting with my hand on her chest or stroking her face, and she just screams and screams and whinges and screams and cries and cries and cries. After about an hour I usually give up and feed her to sleep again.

Anyone have any advice?

I just saw your post about your daughter being a light sleeper - white noise is fantastic for drowning out general noises in the house. We have played it every time my daughter is sleeping from very young and it has developed into a sleep cue for her, whether at home or out and about. If she stirs, she settles back to sleep much faster when it is playing

It's not how I've been parenting her so far - she has never been left to cry about anything

In the same. I think a cosleeper cot (full sized, one side removed) may be your answer.

Working in a comforter of some description will be important - if not a dummy then a toy, blankie, muslin. And realistic expectations. I wouldn't be expecting the cot to be out of your room by 12 months. The 4th side might be on by then though.

Then work on feeding to sleep with baby (in sleeping bag) in the cot. Start unlatching and settling with a firm hand on chest. Rematch if upset, unlatch when calm. This is quite clearly baby using your nipple as a dummy but if baby has no other comfort, then there are no other options. But at least it is teaching baby to go to sleep lying in the cot, not in your arms.

In a few months time you could hopefully have baby bonded with a comforter of some description. IME comforter toys start getting noticed around 9 months then come into their own around 12 months old. The idea is you then start withdrawing the breast for comfort and replacing with the comforter. In the mean time use ťhe comforter every time you comfort baby, to make that association. So hold it to baby while cuddling and feeding.

Personally, I'd work on the dummy. It's not unheard of for a child this age to first get the dummy. 6 months is an age for many changes as the tongue-thrust reflex disappears. It means many babies who refused a bottle or cup now accept them. Same principle with dummy. The dummy is an amazing tool for independant sleep since it can be used from birth, whereas a comforter is closer to 12 months old before it's providing the same level of comfort a newborn at 3 weeks could get with a dummy. So certainly at 6 months.

I wouldn't start looking to withdraw the breast for comfort-comfort is one of the main/most important things about breastfeeding. It's one of the main benefits for you both too as they get older - comfort when they hurt themselves, when they are somewhere unfamiliar, etc. Something that always works that you've always got with you!

Baby using your nipple as a dummy is normal. No one ever says the baby is using that dummy as a nipple-that's exactly what a dummy is, a subsitute boob. I'm not against dummies at all, they can be fantastic for many parents but sometimes there is so much pressure to use a dummy/get baby to sleep independently etc. If you carry on what you are doing, your baby will sleep on her own when she is ready. You can probably push this sooner with methods mentioned above but don't feel this is something you should be doing if you don't want to.

Defiantly join the breastfeeding groups on FB. They are really good, especially as you say no one in your family has breastfed as long as you.

www.laleche.org.uk/dummies-and-breastfeeding/ this is interesting about dummies.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/sarahockwell-smith.com/2014/06/30/self-settling-what-really-happens-when-you-teach-a-baby-to-self-soothe-to-sleep/amp/
This is a good read about self soothing-not everyone's opinion but may make you feel better for doing what you are already doing. Sorry to give you more links, I know you did say you had already read loads!

Believe I have asked about TT because I have always suspected she had one - shallow latch, never opened mouth wide the way you see in pictures, and she used to make a clicking sound when she fed (that seems to have stopped mostly now though). She also has never stuck her tongue out and there is a little line running down the middle. HV checked last week (although I'm not convinced she managed to get a proper look underneath) and said no TT. DD has always gained weight well. I might query it again. Would that affect her sleep?

Thanks little interesting reads. The Hockwrll Smith one takes the science and rather pushes the conclusions, doesn't it?

Would you recommend any FB groups in particular?

FATE I've just got DD down for a nap in her cosleeper, fed her to sleep in there. I've also selected a teddy/comforter thing to start working in. She does like to fidget a lot as she feeds so hopefully I can get her to fidget with that and build a connection that way. I can see her making sucking motions in her sleep. She's such a sucky baby - it's a pity she won't take a dummy. Might try again later.

One q about feeding in the co-sleeper: doesn't it mean you are always feeding from one side? Or is there a trick I haven't thought of.

riddles we have a Prince Liinheart white noise thing which is triggered if she moves or cries. But maybe I need to get a more constant noise to drown out household noise.

Thanks to everyone for your responses - I really appreciate your taking the time to post.

Yes Sarah Ockwell Smith has quite strong views and lots of people disagree. Sometines it's good to read from that point of view though if people in real life is telling you stop breastfeeding, do sleep training, etc.

The Isis research re:sleep training is far better for non-bias.

Feeding from one side-I fed from only one side during the night and never had any problems, just fed from the other side in the morning.
I found feeding in the co sleeper uncomfortable though so I fed in bed (I made it as safe as possible for co-sleeping). I did sometimes move to the co-sleeper but mostly didnt. Obviously the co-sleeper is safer than the bed though even with making the bed as safe as you can.

The clicking etc does sound like TT. I wouldn't have thought the HV was the best person to assess, you're probably best getting a private lactation consultant to look. TT can affect sleep as it can mean the milk transfer isn't as good so baby can need to feed more frequently to get the milk they need. It can also affect eating and speech. If you can get DD seen ASAP, some private lactation consultants will cut without GA just past 6 Months but if you leave much longer, you are probably looking at GA.

FB- breastfeeding younger babies and beyond is the only one I can remember off the top of my head! I'll have a look at what others are called later.

I don't do crying at bedtime.

Co slept, never a tear or a tantrum, no one ever was deprived of sleep.
Easy peasy.

Did you go to bed at the same time as your baby Westray? And never went out?

Hi coming to this late but just wanted to say to MaudGonneMad that I'm BF baby no 3 to sleep he's 1 next week has tongue tie but is gaining weight fine here they don't cut it if it's not causing weight lose or issues BF.
I expect I'll be BF to sleep for another 6 months or so did the same with my other 2 who are a bit older & I can safely say they have no problems self settling.
No 3 wouldn't settle with anyone else till about 8 months but now with a bit of movement goes off fine so don't worry about childcare they are used to it & will probably put her in a pushchair & settle her in that.
You're doing a great job I had lots of those helpful comments...still do about they'd sleep better if you did xyz & baby should sleep through from 4/5/6/12 months old but in reality studies show they don't sleep through & that it's perfectly normal for them to wake frequently.

The Hockwrll Smith one takes the science and rather pushes the conclusions, doesn't it?

Great summery of Sarah O-S and I completely agree. I really like her science and often refer to it. The massive flaw is that the entire article could be summarised as:

"Give baby a dummy from birth to school age"

But that won't sell many books!

She's basically saying that science shows babies brains do not have the emotional capacity to cope with no comfort when going to sleep until somewsomewhere around school age.

Yes, great. I agree. She then takes these facts and interprets them to assume that all babies must get their comfort from their parents. It bypasses the entire premise of getting independant comfort from a dummy (or when older, comforter toy).

Sarah O-S works on the basis that you either attachment parent, or offer no comfort.

Independant comfort is the massive middle ground.

Likewise I think some people assume that controlled crying or spaced soothing means withdrawing all comfort, which it does not.

Oh with the going out. I would expect that will get better in the next few months all mine needed me to a settle til about 6/7 months.
Just make sure her dad is really involved in her (not saying he isn't) leave her with him when you know she'll be awake. Build their relationship & his confidence ( it is daunting having a screaming baby) then before you know it he'll be able to settle her to.

Just thought I'd say I know I've contradicted myself because when I actually thought about it no 3 settled with my hubby at about 6-7 months but others it was about 8-9 months.

Did you go to bed at the same time as your baby Westray? And never went out?

Sometimes, more often than not baby came to bed with me.. Fall asleep on sofa and be carried upstairs when I went to bed.

And yes I went out loads.

So what happened baby when you went out?

Our little darling is far too light a sleeper to be able to sleep on the sofa. Ten minutes after I posted she had gone down for a nap, my tummy rumbled and she woke up. Wide awake ever since

*So what happened baby when you went out?

I took baby with me.

At night? To a pub? Or a restaurant for a meal?

I don't go to pubs or clubs, not my thing. Restaurants yes, love them, but we go for lunch and baby can come.
Easy to take to friends or relatives homes for a meal, BBQs picnics galore.
I don't have any family to babysit anyway so baby has to come.
Trips out don't have to be late nigh affairs.

Having a baby means a certain amount of adjustment.
At 6 months I was breastfeeding and I didn't express, so I was rarely away from my baby.
OH and I used to have evening meals out before having kids, but apart from moving the timin of meals out our social life hasn't really changed.

Ah ok - I'm not a mad socialite but I do (or used to) enjoy the odd meal out with friends, and adult company over a drink or two of an evening. Different strokes for different folks.

Also, if she wakes and I'm on a rare night out, she is inconsolable despite DH's best efforts.

Assuming it is rare, this is not going to do any harm. Baby will just catch up on sleep and Mummy cuddles when you're home. DH would be better off not trying to put baby to bed on such nights - go on an evening walk, bouncy chair in living room watching TV, pop round to visit friends/family with baby, cuddles on the sofa. Assuming it's are rare once in a blue moon occassions, this is no problem at all.

Leaving baby will be much easier past 12 months anyway. Until then, bedtime was all about Mummy in our house. Fair payback, I say, given that after 1y my DH takes sole charge of bedtimes for the following 10 years.

MaudGonneMad - my social life with friends has mostly moved to daytime activities with friends. Likewise most of my "dates" with my husband are lunch dates.

I meet one group of friends for breakfast every 2 weeks. Another group for lunch at the weekend every month. I meet for cuppas at each others houses or we go out for coffee.

After four children, I'm mostly too knackered and love my bed too much to do stuff in the evening.

Mine would have been inconsolable too at that age, it does get easier as they get older. I would do what fate suggests, not even get DH to attempt to put them to bed. As a one off, keeping them up late letting them fall asleep on sofa/go out in pram etc, will be fine.

I had a couple of times where I was in hospital and DH had to just manage as best he could. I think he put night garden on for about 3 hours and just struggled through until baby fell asleep, then did same when they woke in the night. Not ideal but got them through.

I didn't go on nights out until I was sure they would be fine without me, I couldn't have enjoyed myself properly. It doesn't last forever. I felt like it was such a short period in my life and that I'd have years to go out every weekend if I wanted when they were older.

I did more things in day, so lunches with friends either taking baby or once they were older left them when I knew they'd be ok for a couple of hours. Did takeaway at mine with friends or at theirs taking baby with me.

I've been out twice in 6 months. On both occasions I put DD to bed and she was sound asleep but woke within an hour and cried more or less continuously till I came home according to DH.