"Controlled Comforting"

[Tissy]

I recently read an article about this in a magazine- it purports to be a kinder variant of controlled crying. Has anyone tried it??

My dd is 4 months old, and still waking at least twice in the night for a feed (not including the "bedtime" feed). I have a busy full time job, and she has to go to nursery during the day. My theory is that as she doesn't like taking her EBM from a bottle, she takes just enough to get her through the day, then "tops up" when she is back home, even if it means waking at night. Can I get her out of this habit at all? Does CC work in this situation or would it be cruel if she is actually hungry? Would it persuade her to take more milk during the day?

Before I went back to work she had slept through a handful of nights, but mostly woke once for a feed. I was optimistic that things would improve as she got older, but they've got worse and I haven't had more than 3 hours sleep at a time for the last month. Any advice would be appreciated.

O think 4 months is too young for CC. What about feeding her with a baby cup the EBM ?

Is she on solids yet ? Sometimes if they regress with waking it means they are ready for solids. My dd woke once in the night until she was 4.5 months but regressed a lot when she needed solids.

Hahah.... Tillysmummy... I have been waiting for someone to write this
"Sometimes if they regress with waking it means they are ready for solids": That's actually NOT true.... You may know that I am training as a BF counsellor and one of the things I am studying as we speak is the readiness for weaning.
While it is common for mothers (including me) to think we can wean from 4 months onwards it is best to wait for 6 months and for some of the following signs :
Baby can sit up
Baby has lost tongue thrust reflex which pushes things out of his mouth
Baby shows interest in food, perhaps shouting or struggling to reach your food
Baby is able to pick up food and put it in his mouth
Baby wants to chew and may have teeth
Baby is still hungry after a feed and demand feeds more often.

You may ask, what does it matter whether they are weaned at 4 or 6 months... well their digestive system might not be fully ready/developed. Also breast milk has a better balance of nutrients and contains essential antibodies. Also breast milk has more calories !

Two studies have found there was no difference in sleep patterns of babies given solids before bed and babies who were not given solids. (I have the ref. to the studies if you're interested).

Waiting for your baby to be ready has these advantages :

• Feeding is less messy
• Baby is less likley to develop allergies
• Preparing food is easier as you need to mash not puree
• Baby will progress from smooth to family foods more quickly

Having said all this- I didn't know ALL of that when I weaned so I am not having a go- I wasn't better myself anyway

That is interesting Pupuce because I was umming and ahhing about weaning dd. She did however show some of the signs you mention above. She was definitely hungry still after feeding but also she had two teeth already and the top two coming through and seemed to want to put everything in her mouth. She was also waking a lot.

I finally did it because my mum, hv and others around said that I should because she was such a long, hungry baby. I always wonder if I did the right thing.

What damage can it do to the digestive system ?

I know I was weaned early and I seem ok but I guess they didn't know any better then

I guess it depsnds on the child and how early.. and what you weaned them with ! If you weaned very early with very basic foods I am sure you are likely to be OK but I am not (yet ) a specialist. There are issues around allergies or intolerances. So if one needs to wean early I would really stay with baby rice and certainly avoid wheat, sugar, salt, some fruits and vegetables.
The Association of Breastfeeding Mothers (who I am training with) recommend increasing the number of breastfeeds before starting solids so that you can increase the supply....

She was mainly fed root veges, lots of carrots and swede and lots of sweet potato and also pears. She now has quite a sophisticated diet at 9 months. We were never taught anything about weaning at NCT classes. I think perhaps we should have been at the breasfeeding class ?

As I mentioned on another thread, I had the exact same problem with my dd when she started nursery. Two things helped me get some sleep:

1. letting dd start her 'night' relatively late - she breastfed a lot during the evening, then got put in her cot 11ish when I went to bed, fully tanked up on milk. After that, she would usually only wake once during MY night (11-7.30ish), sometimes not even that, so I felt a got a reasonable chance at sleeping.
2. co-sleeping - so if she woke in the night I would just feed her lying down and we both drifted back off to sleep, me almost immediately, don't know how long it took her to decide she wanted sleep more than milk!

If you haven't already tried them, these might help you too.

Most people would find 4 months very young for controlled crying. I felt that dd was so desperate to breastfeed in the evenings and at night because she needed the comfort and reassurance as well as the milk, so I think withholding it to do controlled crying (or comforting!) would have been counter-productive for us at that stage. Later, though, when she learnt to resist sleep and did so with all her might, I found cc extremely helpful, if brutal for all concerned!

I do think it will get better, lots of children settle into good sleeping patterns soon after 4 months, and she has the change and challenge of starting nursery to get used to right now. I know how hard it is to have to go back to work when you have such a tiny one, and to be sleep-deprived and emotionally exhausted, and I really feel for you. Do you have a partner, or family nearby? What can they do to help you catch up on sleep and rest at weekends?

Would love to know more about 'controlled comforting', please explain!

Don't know if this is relevant or helpful, but I am currently reading an American book called "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley. It's supposed to help you to plan your own sleep routine, solving problems without resorting to 'crying it out'. I haven't finished the book yet (too bl**dy tired!) but there are some good ideas which I've tried and had success with. She doesn't promise instant success but says her ideas work best if started early (our dd is nearly 4 mnths). It's available from Amazon.

I've not heard of controlled comfort before but wonder if it is something we tried to do with our DS at about 4/5 months. This was to put him, down awake and pat his bottom/sing to him/shh him to sleep - which, believe me, was a big step at the time. Then gradually we tried to leave him when he was not quite asleep. Sometimes he would cry and we would leave him a minute and then go back and repeat. I tended to refer to this has controlled crying because those minutes seemed to last forever but its not like some of the experiences on here.

The interesting thing about babies wanting to put things in their mouth is that it means they are feeling and experiencing objects in their 'oral phase'. The mouth is more sensitive and babies get information about their surroundings via their mouth and not their hands. This is often mistaken as a sign of hunger. Not like me - I stuff things in my mouth out of greed and boredom, not hunger. Does anyone out there eat when they are not actually hungry? I would bet we all do - babies are no different in that respect.

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Zoya-I tried letting her stay up late last night and put her to bed at the same time as us- 11pm with a feed and she still woke at 2.20 and 5 am! We did co-sleep for the first 2 months, but my job involves going in to work on some nights, so I wanted her sleeping in her cot, so that she wouldn't be too disturbed if I was called in.
I do have a partner who is very supportive, but no other family nearby. He does try to help me catch up on sleep at weekends, but I find it extremely difficult to sleep during the day even when exhausted!

I'll try and dig out the article I recently read. I think it was in practical parenting "At last a sleep programme that really works!" It was much as Bozza suggests- putting the baby down awake, but facing away from you, so no eye contact, and patting until asleep. You were allowed to pick up the baby to comfort her after 15 mins if crying, but then keep going with the patting. When asleep, turn baby onto the back.

Ionesmum- I'll get the book-thanks

Bloss- I'm so pleased that there is someone else out there going through it- when tired it is very easy to blame yourself and assume that you must be doing something wrong. I'll certainly try the watered down milk- although I'll probably feel awful for offering a bottle when I'm not there all day for the comfort side of breastfeeding. At the moment I feel that I'm a couple of steps away from the psychiatric ward- and I'm sure that she'll be happier if I was less stressed out.

Poor you Tissy, I'm sorry you had another bad night. I sympathise too about not being able to sleep in the day, I've never been very good at it, and though sheer exhaustion drove me to it a few times when dd was waking a lot at night, I never found it as refreshing as a good night's sleep.

Bloss's idea makes a lot of sense to me, as I also found taht dd was not hungry for a feed when she woke at 7 after being fed in the night, just woke up cheery and ready to play. I was obviously too knackered to figure out what that meant as usefully as Bloss did! Once she started sleeping through, she always woke up STARVING - still does, at 13 months.

What about dp offering her a bottle of EBM mixed with water in the night? I say dp rather than you because:

1. it will give you a bit more sleep which seems like the most important thing here! . It would be ideal if you could go and sleep in the spare room/on the living room floor, or whatever, and get a whole night while the performance goes on without you. The first time I did that I felt hideously guilty at bedtime, but soooooo much better in the morning! Made a HUGE difference to my ability to cope.
2. if she gets some nice cuddly reassuring bottles from a beloved parent at home, it may help her decide the ones at nursery aren't so bad

Good luck, I really hope you get some decent sleep soon.

Tissy,

If your baby sleeps when co - sleeping, go back to that. The priority is you getting sleep. If you get called away during the night it is not your problem ! Your dp will have to deal with it My friend works full time shifts and co-sleeps with her ds when she is not night shift. Funnily enough when she is night shift her dp does not have any difficulty settling him without her.

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Co-sleeping didn't mean that dd slept any better- but I wasn't at work at the time, so the broken nights were much less of a problem! She transferred to her cot relatively easily before I went back to work, and only started this nocturnal feeding business halfway throgh her first week at nursery (she slept through for the first three nights of that week!).

Tissy - she may well be topping up with milk during the night but this is not wrong or bad. She obviously needs the milk so I'd say let her have it. She is still young and growing and as pupuce says not necessarily ready for solids. I co-slept and I think this is ideal when babies are young. Particularly if you work full time you may as well do your mothering (feeding and cuddling) during the night when asleep. Also I didn't put my son onto solids till around 5 months old. Even then he wasn't really taking much till 9 months which was when he got his first tooth.

Oh and advice I was given was no watered down bottles till over 6 months as baby clearly needs the nutrients.

I've ordered the Elizabeth Pantley book from Amazon, and discovered from the reviews that she has a website: www.pantley.com/elizabeth.

It makes interesting reading, and has encouraged me somewhat, even though it is rather "American"(apologies if there are any American Mumsnetters out there- its not a derogatory term, just a description of a style!). I really don't have the heart for CC, even if she was old enough. She cried for 30 mins on a long car journey at the weekend, when we couldn't stop between motorway services, and I was heartbroken at being unable to soothe her. I just know I would give in!!!

Looked at the EP website, and I think I should rush out and buy Perfect Parenting (despite the terrifying title!): never mind kids, her tips on dealing with 'whining, complaining, back-talk, lying, teasing, fighting, anger, disrespect, interrupting, sassing, nose-picking, laziness, fussiness' sound like just what I need to help me cope with some of my work colleagues . I know just what you mean about 'American', what a glossy bunch of implausibly well-groomed children the Pantleys are.

Wish I'd known about controlled comforting months ago, controlled crying DID work for us at c.7-8 months, but oh it was hard...

Good luck!

I agree with you Tissy about the Pantley book. I like the way it is realistic about the fact that it's lovely to hold a sleeping baby in your arms occaisionally and not to feel guilty about it! Our dd has a problem with trapped wind and can get very distressed, and I've found the gentler ideas in this book far more apprpriate for our little one.