Sleep trainer for a 4 month old

[Cinnamon84]

Is there such a thing?

I'm losing it. Ds has had about 20 min sleep in the last 5 hours. Am manically rocking and patting him in the sling. If I go into a dark room or try to put the hood up he screams until he goes bright red and sounds like he's choking.

Have written several other posts as NOTHING helps him sleep apart from the sling (but not without crying first).

He's overtired now but he wasn't 3/4 hours ago. None of the following work:
Pram- he cries and won't sleep even on an almost 2 hour walk with a dummy
Car seat- screams his head off
Dummy- doesn't seem to do anything
Bouncy chair
My rocking chair
Swaddling
Loud white noise
Light show
Dark room
Feeding to sleep- tried this earlier and he fell asleep (yay!) for about 10 mins then woke up smiling at me.

I must be going wrong somewhere, it's like this everyday and can't see it improving

Firstly calm down. You sound very tense and stressed and that won't be helping.

Second set some realistic expectations. Is this your first child? Getting a baby to sleep is hard work for some babies. Very hard work. They need lots and lots of calm reassurance and consistency. Baby's sleep can easily take a large chunk of your day and this is normal. This is normal baby behaviour. It doesn't match the ideal picture-perfect expectations many parents expect. But it is the reality. It is normal. Your baby being a normal baby does not mean you are doing anything wrong.

So you don't need to stress about sleep being hard work. Just accept it is hard work, relax and keep going.

" NOTHING helps him sleep apart from the sling (but not without crying first)"

So if baby is crying first anyway, personally I'd go for an independent place to sleep so that I could get some of my own space back in the Pease when baby sleeps.

If baby cries to get to sleep. I'd let baby do that crying in the bouncy chair. I'd sit next to the chair, hold dummy in baby a mouth (tapping outside to encourage sucking) while bouncing bouncy chair and trying to zone-out the crying by watching tv.

Then just be relentless.

Dummy bounce dummy bounce dummy bounce bounce bounce bounce. And. Keep. On. Going.

Also check her milk intake. A full tummy usually means a happy baby. Feed. Feed. Feed. Feed. Feed some more.

I swapped to bottle feeding by 4 months. Baby was having a full feed every 90m-2h through the day. Lots and lots of frequent full feeds.

I 100% agree with this

Also check her milk intake. A full tummy usually means a happy baby. Feed. Feed. Feed. Feed. Feed some more.

My DS is also on formula. At 4 months he was regularly draining a 210 ml bottle every 3 hours. He's now 5 months and I've had to up it to 240ml (but mainly cos that's the maximum size of our damn bottles)

Obv, not saying you need to go to formula if you are BF, but maybe try cluster feeding. It may help.

Sleep trainers normally don't work with babies that young because the consensus tends to be that sleep training could be harmful under 6 months.

I agree with the above poster. What is "normal" for babies' sleep varies so much more than what we are led to expect. My son was also an extremely poor sleeper, much of his first 18 months was taken up by the struggle to get him to sleep... and to go back to sleep again... and a surprisingly large number of friends/acquaintances then opened up about how their children also weren't sleeping till into toddlerhood. This is not to freak you out, I am sure you will get better sleep soon, just to help you better situate yourself on the spectrum.

I haven't seen your other posts so I may be repeating advice you've already had. But: have you been to the GP? Have you ruled out reflux (if your DS has reflux that could be hugely painful and there are medications available) or food allergies? How long has this period of poor sleep been going on? Could he be going through a developmental leap which is normally associated with a deterioration in sleep (see the Wonder Weeks)?

And do you have help? What I found while going through my own little sleep purgatory was that getting to the deep phase in the sleep cycle at least once a day was what I needed to stay functioning; i.e. at least two, ideally three hours of contiguous sleep. But I went through months without getting that even once a day. (Bear in mind that I am the type that ideally needs more sleep than the average to be doing well, closer to 9 hours than to 7, so it is not that I am one of those people who naturally do well with little sleep. But you can survive on amazingly little.)

Is he unsettled? Does he cry a lot? If so it's worth checking if there's an underlying issue. Cows milk allergy, reflux etc. My lb was a nightmare and never slept, he cried all the time and when he was 4 1/2 months he finally got diagnosed with cmpi & reflux.
If he's fine then just ignore that first part!

I put my lb to sleep during the day in a star wrap blanket, they sell them on tuppence & crumble website, it's amazing as he can't kick any of it off and he chews on his hand through the blanket which soothes him and helps him to sleep. I'm sorry that's the only recommendation I can offer

http://tuppenceandcrumble.com/shop/starwraps/buy-star-wrapss_naturals/Baby-Star-Wraps-Naturals

You sound exhausted and tense. My already 5 months old also was very hard to put asleep until couple weeks ago. Now she is sleeping through night, maybe will wake up once. My life saver was book written by Stephanie Modell The baby sleep guide. If you haven't red that give it a go. You have nothing to loose.

The only way I got DS to sleep for many, many months was by a) breastfeeding to sleep, then holding him on my chest in a rocking chair (he slept longer if I just kept holding him, though that obviously didn't help my own sleep a great deal), or b) strapping him to myself and going for a walk, but that way it took much longer for him to nod off and he'd only sleep for 30-40 minutes at a time. At least that got me out of the rocking chair...

I remember a great deal of walking while rocking him in my arms and singing to him (and bumping into furniture and walls every now and then in that delirious state), but I no longer remember if I did that after breastfeeding sometimes or instead, when I didn't have milk or my nipples needed a break. I am not sure if you really meant rocking him "manically" but try to project calm, that might help him relax into sleep as well.

The point at which I finally got significantly better sleep was when I took him into my bed at 18 months and we've been cosleeping since. I wish now that I had done that much earlier, but I am not sure it would have helped that much yet at 4 months - my son also had reflux.

I also had days like you describe, when my son would feed to sleep then wake up every ten minutes. I went through a lot of Lansinoh!

So: patience! Talk to your GP! Get someone (baby's father?) to give you a couple of hours to sleep if you can! Read the "No cry sleep solution", it might help (even if just on the margins). If it doesn't get better when your baby is older, I can recommend Ann Caird of www.nurturingsleep.co.uk who has worked with a lot of extremely difficult sleepers (you can search for her on Mumsnet as well, which may lead you to other threads with veteran non-sleepers).

Don't know if this will help at all, but I am currently rocking DS to sleep. I put him so that his head is resting on my shoulder and then gently rock back and forth on the sofa. He's usually good at sleeping, but this helps during the difficult times (he's teething). Something else you could try.

I think gentle movements help most. My DP always bounces and I think it actually stops DS from sleeping; I always end up taking over and he's usually asleep in minutes.

I've commented on your posts before.

Firstly, not sure if I've already suggested it, but a snooze shade over the buggy worked wonders for my first who was similarly difficult to get to sleep. She did cry at first, I didn't like it, but she needed to sleep. (Obv didn't leave her long, kept stopping to pat her tummy, etc.)

Secondly, you sound increasingly fraught. I absolutely know how awful a nightmare sleeper is. And how you feel like you can't go out. I felt like a failure when all these other mums would talk about how their baby slept for two hours or whatever. One day - literally overnight - my eldest worked it out, so I'm pretty sure ur wasn't me. Now I've got a second I know it's about the baby, not you - this one actually sleeps and I'm not doing anything differently. But I wonder if you might benefit from talking to someone - HV, GP, etc - about how you're feeling. I suspect I had PND after my first, partly to do with constant sleep battles and feeling like a failure. Please do think about talking to someone.

I also breastfed to sleep and then coslept with my baby and this was great mistake I did. While it can be a good idea to do with newborn but not at 3 months and own wards. The thing is that babies half awake at sleep cycles and if the surroundings have changed then baby won't connect his sleep cycles and will wake up.
At the moment when I stopped breastfeeding to sleep my baby learned hers self to settle down and sleep and sleep for lot longer.
Thought there can be other reasons too why baby isn't sleeping.

I agree with others who say you need to calm down. DS 1 had a stage where he was awful to get to sleep, I remember a couple of days where he only slept 20 mins! It's awful, it really is.
But you need to detach from it a bit - you are doing all you can to get him to sleep, if that doesn't work, then you can't do anything about it. You are giving him the chance to sleep, but you can't force him to sleep. You say he woke smiling from his nap, I'd say that's a good sign. Put him in his pram, get out, treat yourself to a coffee, talk to a friend about how you're feeling. Get help if you can, someone to take him off your hands for a couple of hours.
How does he sleep during the night?

Ok , firstly, I really really feel for you. We've had 14 months of this, tried absolutely bloody everything and been driven to near insanity through lack of sleep. I understand. It's awful. I have been where you are now. Still there some nights :(

First things first: have you had a thorough physical check up for him? Ear infection? Wind? Reflux? All these can cause them a lot of pain. Ear infection and reflux need checking by the doc. Wind is often helped by bicycling their legs when they are lying on their backs. Our son was teething at four months too.

I'm not going to give you any advice on how to get him to sleep because I've never figured it out with mine. But I will say that looking after yourself is critical. Do whatever you need to get rest. If you e any family nearby or friends or partner they could give you a few hours sleep or rest.
Dh and I have given up on changing things to make him sleep. Now we do whatever works and take him in shifts overnight. It's helped us both a lot. Twice I've been on the brink of passing out and just had to lie down in his playpen with him (and I passed out both times and he wailed but he was safe...)
Talk to your midwife/doc as well - sleep deprivation can do a number on your mental health. Take care of you.
As I'm sure you know as well, four months is a classic time for poor sleep. Book a check tomorrow to get his ears looked at and rule out anything physical

Thanks all.

I really am fine, just losing it slightly as I'm exhausted from trying to get ds to sleep. He's not too bad at night- normally feeds to sleep then I put him down next to me. Occasionally he'll wake up when I put him down and I'll/dp have to spend 20 mins rocking him to sleep.

It's just daytime naps. I really have tried everything. I can't put him in the pram and go out as he doesn't sleep and cries. There's at least 1 meltdown a day- he really screams until he's bright red and hot and sounds like he's choking.

He's very smiley otherwise. - Even after 3 hours of being awake but very quickly gets shouty and upset. I know my post seemed melodramatic but it's so exhausting- I spend most days with him in the sling bouncing on a yoga ball in a dark room.

Agree with pps at 4 months I don't think there should be a strict routine. 4 months is tiny. Is this your first baby. Babies need cuddles and to feel safe. They are inside you for 9 months and need to feel secure with you. You sound really stressed and your baby can probably pick up on that. I don't see what is wrong if he is usually so good at night. Nap when the baby naps. And you really need to calm and focus on trying to relax a bit.

And why are you keeping baby in a dark room? Throughout the day? Are u just wanting baby to sleep and be quiet 24/7?

I have a similar aged Ds who is my second. This sounds so familiar with my first and looking back and comparing with what happens now is I never recognised she was tired until it was too late and she would be awake for hours screaming and yelling. I would first go to doctor and get referred asap to see if it is silent reflux or a milk allergy - more common than you think. Also many of my friends who had the same said a cranial osteopath worked wonders especially if there had been a difficult birth. My baby now can be very difficult to get to sleep during day, keeping a hand on his tummy and rocking sometimes works as does putting radio 3 on louder than necessary! He loves gazing at Christmas tree lights and they seem to calm him down enough to be ready to sleep. He is drinking a huge amount 210 x 6 a days. Bath time and lots of kicking in the baby seat helps a lot and low level lighting when possible. Cars and prams do not work for us either!! If you can get a night nanny at least you might feel better and feel stronger to cope during the day.

No it's not at all because I want him to sleep and be quiet constantly. It's because I'll get him to sleep in the sling but as soon as I go downstairs or into a bright room or stop moving/sit down he wakes up. He does have awake time and he's a very alert and smiley when he's awake. As soon as he starts yawning or rubbing his eyes I try and get him to nap, but he doesn't sleep and gets upset.

Ugh naps can be so stressful. My toddler was always a brilliant sleeper at night (once she had been fed to sleep at bedtime) but was very tricky when it came to naps. It often did (and still does) take up to 30 mins to get her to nap in the daytime.

The only thing I wonder is whether you might be waiting too long to attempt the nap. At 4 months old, I was getting my daughter to nap about every 2 hours. They were only catnaps each time but they were frequent enough that she didn't get over-tired. I was living by the clock which was annoying and staying at home a lot but it was the only thing that worked (before that I had experienced similar to you with a baby who wasn't really napping and would have one full on meltdown per day - it's bloody awful). I would note what time she woke and then two hours after that I would re-start the nap routine which involved a dark room, a feed followed by a dummy, a white noise machine and rocking her to sleep. I would say that took on average 20 minutes each time so it was hard work.

I would often attempt to resettle her after she woke up. So if she woke after 30 mins I would dash back to her and rock/feed her back to sleep. She would typically go back to sleep after just a few minutes of comfort and then go into a deeper sleep and sleep a bit longer - another 45 mins - hour.

So thinking about timing between naps and re-settling would be my suggestions.

Also know it will get easier. Catnapping in young babies is very, very, very normal.

Oh and like you, I tried everything else - car seats, prams etc etc. My baby also screamed in these. I seemed to be surrounded by people with similar aged babies who would just drop off anywhere. V frustrating but once I accepted my baby for who she was, I was able to relax and enjoy her more. Then before I knew it (at around 6 months) she would take at least one much longer naps of 1.5-2 hours a day.

The best baby advise I have ready on MN is to try and get babies to nap about 90 mins after there last sleep. If they rub their eyes and yawn they are already to tired. DIsclaimer - I can only get DD, just turned 7 months, to sleep by jiggling her up and down on me while I lay on the sofa.

He does have awake time and he's a very alert and smiley when he's awake. As soon as he starts yawning or rubbing his eyes I try and get him to nap, but he doesn't sleep and gets upset.

He's not tired.

Chill. Out.

I have a 4 month old too, she's my third. She used to nap quite well in the day, but lately she's just having 20 min snatches. Still sleeps well at night but spends a lot of the day awake now. Which can be totally normal at 4 months.

Feed when hungry, put down when they fall asleep. Trying to force sleep on a baby who isn't really tired will just be stressful for everyone.

I know it's hard. I really do. Really. But just chill out and go with the flow. Routine will come.

I agree with the Pink, my 4 month old can go 1.5 hours before needing another nap. I time journeys/walks etc to try and coordinate but I have a just turned 2 year old so it's not always perfect!

My older one was a COMPLETE nightmare, and sounds very like yours. What I would say is that some babies finds bouncing/contact etc stimulating rather than relaxing, so perhaps that may actually be exacerbating your issue.

I'd also say that it's important for now, to get her to sleep. Once you've sorted the tiredness, then you can work on a routine IYKWIM.

It will get better, it's so unbelievably hard I know. I was a crazy bitch with my eldest, because he drove me to fucking distraction with his daily screaming!

If he sleeps ok at night I really wouldn't worry too much.
Ours wakes roughly every half hour day or night. That is quite tough... he dropped all but one nap by 11 months and needs resettling every ten mins or so in the day. He doesn't sleep nights either so we are pretty knackered.
If he's okay at night then really don't stress about it. They do catnap at that age.

Thanks everyone for the advice. The reason I say 'sleep training' is because he gets so upset at least once a day and now seems to cry himself to sleep a lot so I felt something must be wrong, and I was worried about forming bad habits and sleep associations. I don't mind the cat naps so much, I'm just happy for any sleep he gets thatcdoesn't involve crying.

When I say he sleeps ok at night I mean most of the time he still wakes every 1.5-3 hours but is settled more easily and has longer stretches of sleep compared to daytime. I fully expect him to still be waking up to feed so nights aren't the issue.

WellErr- surely if he's rubbing his eyes and yawning he is tired?

Cinnamon I would honestly advise putting him down 1.5 hours after each waking. Waiting for 'sleep cues' is difficult as often these can be missed (or you will drive yourself bonkers staring at her all day long wondering if everything is a tired sign!)

She needs more sleep, that's the crux of it. Yes, there will be babies who don't need it etc, but these are few and far between. Naps can be short (10 mins counts, unbelievably!), but if you stick with the 1.5 hours, she should build up sufficient sleep over the course of the day!