8 Month old - lots of night waking

[DoloresAbernathy]

Hello, wondering if anyone has any tips that may help my DC sleep better?
My 8 month old is breastfed and on 3 meals a day solid food wise, with formula milk as a drink with food (this is minimal)
Usually he is up for the day from 6am and naps from 8/9ish for 1hr-1hr 20 mins in sling.
Next nap around 12ish for another 1hr-1hr 20 mins again in sling ( he stays in the sling the whole time for naps)
Bath at 6 and in cot asleep by 7... breastfed and then bopped if needed to get him off to sleep.
He then wakes up multiple times, he used to feed every 2hrs in the night and we are stretching this time to 3hrs.
He will wake between these 3 hr feeds and be rocked/bopped back to sleep.
When it gets to the 3 hrs he will feed to sleep and we then hopefully get at least another hour before he wakes again.
He is teething so I don't know if this is just something we need to accept while his teeth come through.
I know I have messed up by not teaching to self settle etc but I'm just lost as where to start to improve things from here.
Any advice would be greatly welcomed.

Bump

It sounds to me like he's not having enough daytime milk. Babies/toddlers are expected to be having 1 pint (21oz) of milk per day until they are aged 2.

Post-weaning milk is expected to be baby's main source of calories and nutrients until 12 months, certainly until 9 months (after which nutrients from solids behind to overtake milk gradually until 12m). For formula feeding that would mean about 35-40oz per day needed. I appreciate you are breastfeeding so dont know the volumes, but I suspect this is the reason for night time hunger.

You mention a small amount of formula with meals? Is that all for daytime milk? Also, is that all for fluids during the day? (Or is there water, squash, fruit juice etc?)

I remember those first few months after weaning. 6-9 months was like going back to newborn dayd when baby spend all their awake time feeding. Fitting in multiple milk feeds and timing then to work with 3 meals a day was full-on, especially when you factor in naps.

At 8m our average day would be very busy in terms of feeding and sleeping. Not much time to do anything else! For example:

7am wake
7.15-7.30am full milk feed (7-8oz)
8.00-8.30am breakfast and 200ml breaker of diluted fruit juice
9am-10.30am nap
10.45-11am full milk feed (7-8oz)
11.45-12.15pm lunch and 200ml breaker of dilute squash
12.30pm-2pm nap
2.15-2.30pm full milk feed (7-8oz)
3pm - afternoon snack and drink (just before school run)
4pm-5pm nap
5.30-6pm dinner and 200ml breaker of dilute squash
7.15-7.30pm - full milk feed (7-8oz)
7.30-8pm bedtime
10.30pm - 7-8oz milk feed as I go to bed.

So that's 35-40oz of milk per 24h, over 5 feeds. Gradually over the months up to 12m tge feeds were dropped until by 12m we were giving 7oz morning, bedtime and before lunchtime nap only. But at 7 months we were maintaining ore-weaning amou ts of milks, plus 3 meals per day, plus puddings, plus snacks. Loads of time spent eating! It dies settle as they get older.

Thank you so much Fate I felt such relief to see I'd had a reply!

Your response has been really helpful as well

We had a really bad night of sleep last night, I think I only managed 1.5 hours of sleep as I was up and down so much so I've been trying really hard to get his naps in today but again its been a particularly dreadful day nap wise I usually aim for 2 naps a day and between them tend to manage to get 2.5 - 3 hrs between the two naps.

I've noted down how the day has gone up until now;
Woke up properly for the day at 6.30
Breastfed @ 6.50 - only 2 mins
Porridge mixed with formula milk and 1oz of formula milk in dolby cup - didn't drink much of the milk
BF @ 8.33 - 7 mins
Nap at 8.54 but woke after only 40 mins.
Breastfed @ 11.20 - 10 mins
Tried to get off for a nap @ 11.30 in the sling but after 30 mins no luck and gave up when he started to get frustrated.
Lunch / 1oz of formula milk @ 12.00 - ate lunch and drank all milk
Nap @ 1.44 but woke after only 20 mins
Breastfed @ 2.27 - 17 mins
Saw your post while BF @ 2.27 so came downstairs after feed and offered water which he took and gave him some fruit as an afternoon snack which I wouldn't normally / hadn't realised he might need.

He usually does want another Bfeed some where around 4ish and then we have Dinner / bedtime routine etc.

But looking at your list compared to mine I agree he isn't getting as much milk as he obviously should.

He never has accepted bottles, so we waited until he started on food and tried him on formula with a cup which he will now take.

I ordered a NUK 5oz trainer cup which has actually arrived today and thats what I gave him the water in and he was happily drinking away from it so I think I will start offering him water now at meal times instead of formula and will ensure I'm breast feeding him for longer in the day and if he has a short feed I'm going to make sure I'm offering him the breast again much sooner.

He has seem contented enough in the day with what he's been getting but I suppose thats because he is making up for it by feeding in the night.

DH has finished early today so has managed to get him off for a nap @ 4 so fingers crossed its a decent stretch!

Thank you again for your reply its given me a much better idea of where to start, even if I do feel awful thinking I've not been giving him enough of what he needs I'm glad I now know and can do something about it.

Hi there / ive my 3rd who is ebf, 9mths now....I would say you need to stop rocking etc to sleep and help them learn to self settle. That will help a lot. Does he/she have a favourite comforter instead? Once they can fall asleep alone will help at night. This is also big developmental leap time. Wait for just a couple of mins after settling even if they cry as they may go to sleep without you. I have music on monitor I put on each time they go to sleep that now acts like pavlovs dog. It's brilliant!
Disagree on milk / mine on 3/4 feeds every 24 hrs and that is definitely enough. Suggest you try to space out feeds throughout day and they will take more e.g. First feed prob short if they are feeding in night they aren't hungry! As long as they have eg milk in cereal and cheese, yogs etc in day they will get enough calcium, don't worry about that!

Thanks Polly ... yes we do really need to crack the self settle but just feel abit clueless as to how
I do put a lullaby on his monitor as I give him his last feed along with giving him a comforter.
Should I be waiting until he actually is asleep to put the lullaby on rather than when we are trying to get him to sleep?
He does seem to like his comforter and will have it in his hands while feeding and I've seen him feeling it while asleep in cot but I wouldn't say he is attached to it as such but assumed this would come with age or is there something I could be doing to add to his attachment to it? ( I do make sure it's smells of me )
Unless he is already quite sleepy if we put him down drowsy but still awake he always cries and seems to get quickly irate and wakes up more if left so it means it takes longer to re-settle him to that sleepy state... but then even if he is fully sleepy when put down it can still take a few attempts for him to go down and he will wake within an hour/ hour and a half. We are lucky to get 2-3 hour stretches in the night at the moment and it seems impossible to get him in the cot at all in the day.
I guess I'll have to give it a better go at leaving him to cry for a minute before I go to him but it's hard to see this will work as he gets worked up but this is my first so I'm really clueless

Hiya, do you think you could do controlled crying or another form of sleep training?

I'm not sure, I've looked up about controlled crying a little and it's seems to say it's ok to let them cry but stop if they seem to get really worked up/ distressed and I guess to me he does seem to get quite worked up quite quickly if left he doesn't seem to do mild whinging/ crying at night it seems to me to go from sleepy to pretty pissed off at being put down or finding himself in his cot after a sleep straight away so then I think well if I did control crying but went to him as soon as he was really worked up ... it wouldn't even be a minute!
Ive been reading Elizabeth Pantley 'the no cry sleep solution' but can't seem to get further along from put him down while drowsy as like I say he just seems to get really mad, if I try to sooth him while laid in cot that seems to make him madder.
He's got me well trained at least!

If you can distinguish between a pissed off cry and a genuine upset/hurting cry you could do controlled crying. The first night we did it LG was so angry! But she soon got the picture that we weren't going to pick her up. they do learn pretty quickly but obviously it's horrible listening to them. This is one of the reasons we waited until she was one. I decided that was the time, I'd been sleep deprived for a year..it was time!

My DH is saying maybe (from what he has read) we try leaving him for a minute but when we go back in to pick him up until he calms and repeat the process of putting him down awake leave him even if he gets angry for another min and then pick up again and sooth..
Rebecca - did you pick up or just be there by his cot to pat / shush and if after 30 sec to a minute did you leave again even if she was still mad for another min or did you also pick up to sooth?
Seems to be so many differing opinions that I feel a bit lost with what to do for the best

Hi,

No we don't pick up at all. I have done a post on here explaining what I did. It's called Controlled Crying Diary x

I struggle with the irony of a parent who values the attachment and bonding of not only breastfeeding, but breastfeeding long term and on demand, to then consider controlled crying. Like the flick of a switch, just like that, "I've had enough now".

There are lots of gentle, kind methods too.

I'm not CC bashing here. It has value and I understand why parents of older babies use controlled crying when they get to the "Something Must Change" no-option stage.

Ive been reading Elizabeth Pantley...

Are you working on the Pantley Pull Off? You need to master that before putting down awake starts.

Alternatively the thread "what worked for us" is a speeded up gradual withdrawal that might work.

From a different point of view, BF babies can and do tend to wake more frequently, generally in phases but not always. If you are interested, look up The Milk Meg (website or Facebook) for lots of info on what is normal for a BF baby and gentle ways of trying to get a bit more sleep. There's also lots on there to reassure you that you haven't done anything 'wrong'!

FATEdestiny sorry but I find that kind of unhelpful. I have struggled with PNA/PND due to lack of sleep (which thankfully is under control now) but with my LGs sleep getting worse and worse at one something had to be done. I had tried the pantley pull off method which didn't work. I had tried gradual retreat (this just annoyed LG). I tried co sleeping but LG just rooted all night leading to no sleep for me.

Sometimes controlled crying is what's best for you all as a family. It wasn't just a 'flick of a switch decision'. We did a lot of research and we are all so much better for it. Happy mum = happy baby but LG is so much happier too with a decent sleep.

That's fine rebecca, you don't need to project onto everyone else though.

OPs baby is 8 months. Too little for distressing sleep training even if there weren't physical other reasons for the night waking.

I'm not projecting! It's called trying to help and in one of my posts I did say 'This is one of the reasons we waited until she was one.'

Thank you all.
Rebecca thank you, I've read your other thread and it's interesting reading how you got on.
Fate I do agree he is too young and I won't be trying it just yet but I admit I am struggling right now with the lack of sleep but I know I need to try harder on other methods first/push through the tiredness and see the long term.
Tea.. thank you I will have a look
Speaking to DH we've agreed we're both not being consistent enough with Pantleys methods (pull it off seems ok) but after multiple goes putting him down we tend to revert to 'oh let's just get him in a deep sleep so we can put him down' so we are going to go back a step re-read her advice and keep trying on that as well as working hard to keep the day time routine as consistent as possible.
Honestly all points of view are very much appreciated, I need all the help I can get

Fate please would you be able to link to the what you worked for us thread as Im not seeing it?

DoloresAbernathy

At what point are you pulling off from the nipple? Is she fully awake at that point and shes going to sleep in your arms?

That IS progress. It's not breastfeeding to sleep. I'd try to completely seperate feeding and sleeping ar bedtime (and naptime). Could you feed downstairs at the start of bedtime routine, rather than the end?

Then if you are at the cudfling to sleep stage, that's your start point. You make tiny changes with the aim towards independant sleeping.

The most logical way to go from cuddling to sleep to cot would be using a side-car cot and via lying down together to go to sleep.

I'd also try to introduce alternate comfort mechanism - dumny dummy and snuggle toy maybe?

Rather than lowering into the cot, could you get baby used to going to sleep lying next to you? With a sidecar cot, you can cuddle right in next to her. Loads of contact, snuggles, eye contact, reassurance. But you can extract yourself into your own bed once she's asleep.

Over time reduce the physical contact she needs, so she will lie in her cot with you lying on the bed next to her but not touching. This works much better with a dummy to suck.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/1394888-What-worked-for-us-Hope-this-helps

It's the opening post you want to read. The rest of the thread is just other peep who tried it.

Erm, 8 month development leap and sleep regression, folks.

Thanks Fate I'm going to show DH your reply as well as get him to read that post and see where we go from there.
So I feed him and then pull of once he has slowed and then do some bopping and put him down but after a cold/ teething we have slipped back to bopping him until he is fully asleep
We originally had a side cot but moved him out of that at 5 month to his main cot because he seemed too big for the side one so would be tricky to now sleep alongside him but I could do what that thread suggests and get a chair and sit in with him or set up a bed on the floor.
I know he is going through developmental changes but I'm worried about leaving attempts at a solution much longer as I've read it can be much harder once they stand etc but I'm reading a lot so my head is a bit mushy!

Offering a different perspective again...

He may need to feed at night even more so if he is going through a leap or regression. So the pull off technique might just not work- didn't ever work for me!

As Fate is always saying, babies do need comfort to sleep, and for me, this was the right age to introduce a soft toy as a comforter. No immediate effect but DD was very attached to it from 12/13 months and now uses it as her main comfort at 20 months.

IMHO it depends if you want a quick fix or looking at the long term. How long do you plan to BF for? Because he will naturally reduce dependence on it when he's developmentally ready. Again, my opinion but he's quite young and if he transfers more easily when you feed to sleep properly, I'd be tempted to carry on doing that. But I have also have a different

Sorry on phone

...different opinion on the issue of creating 'problems' for the future...

I'm always going on about it in here but I've found a book called 'bedtiming' really useful for judging timing. It is a fascinating insight into developmental stages too. For what it's worth they consider 8 to 11 months one of the worst times, due to separation anxiety. They recommend being consistent with bedtimes but otherwise responsive. It's interesting that 6 months and one year are their recommendations for 'good' ages to sleep train. It is hard when they can stand but you can be loving and kind while consistently laying them down and giving them a little kiss. The key challenge at one is that they want to play, but it isn't such an emotional wrench for them.

hi there
Once he's asleep does he stay asleep? if not then it is probably either illness, teething or not being able to self settle and expecting you to be there when he wakes, as when he went to sleep.
Also I would echo what one of the other posters says and finish feeding before you sing songs/snuggle.
my lo (just 9mths) has only just got attached to her thing, and tbh we have ALWAYS put her to sleep in the cot so my problem is that she won't sleep anywhere else!
Our routine is a little different as I generally have to stop her bro and sis running and in and racing around and getting her all excited so I do bath, change incl grobag, play, book, feed (in dark! so she can FOCUS on feed) and then sing a few songs having a cuddle, put monitor on, lay her down, her holding onto rag thing and then put on wave machine sound effects.
But we do at generally the same time each night (if she is tired, yawning etc then earlier as need be) and
I also make sure at other naps (9ish and 1230) i'm not feeding her before I put her down so she's not associating sleep with feed immediately before, but otherwise same routine (without bath, obvs!)
Sometimes she might whinge for a couple of minutes but then goes to sleep. and if she wakes in the night then I feed her. but sometimes I will put the monitor music on and that will send her back to sleep.
She has 3 feeds a day (all breastfed) at waking, 230/3ish and bedtime.
Lastly, if he is really not sleeping well have you checked to see eg no ear infection or chest infection - or even, try a cranial osteopath. 2 of mine have had (for constipation...) and it worked, but I know lots of mums who have tried for sleep issues and it has also worked. And quite frankly, if you are that tired, I imagine you will try anything really. Put it this way, it won't harm him at all!
good luck