No sleep for over a year

[HollyMaingate]

Apologies for the long post but man desperately seeking help please!

We have two girls - 3.5 yrs and 9 months, both absolutely brilliant happy girls but have a huge problem with the 3 year old at night. She's a dream during the day and excellent with her little sister but I've now not had more than about 4 hours' sleep in a night for the last 13 months and probably only a 2 hour stretch at a time max which is really taking its toll, moreso as I have a demanding job and can't be functioning at 100% there as a result of this either! Prior to this (early last summer would being the last time she slept through) we've had patches of say 6 weeks where she's slept through but to be honest she's never been the best (colic as a baby, big operation when she was 1 plus the usual regular colds, teething etc!).

My wonderful wife has her hands full with the baby so I've been looking after the toddler at night but over a year is now getting ridiculous! She and the little one have moved in with my parents this week while I try and crack it as otherwise the 3yo wakes the baby all night and then it's all 4 of us walking around like zombies the next day. We tried this last month and they moved out for about 3 weeks but had no joy.

The problem isn't that I have to sit in with her, or sleep with her or even getting her to sleep - it's that she just regularly wakes and wants to know I'm there (sat outside her door). Trying to break it this week has been a nightmare, I've been letting her cry when she wakes for 2 mins, then checking on her, then 4, 6, 8 etc. but she's been scaling the stairgate so I've had to rush up while she's on top of it so that she doesn't fall off and down the stairs. The next day I bought a big 4 foot high dog gate, she was then getting boxes, stools, the rocking caterpillar thing - anything to help her climb up and over. The next day my wife emptied virtually everything out of her room so last night she got piles and piles of clothes emptying all her drawers to make a clothes mountain to climb up to try and get out - it's ridiculous (though would make a good comedy sketch!). Anyway, she's black and blue all over her knees and chin from climbing up it which is heartbreaking and this method doesn't seem to have any positive effect other than risking injury and even less sleep than if I sit outside her door or sleep on the floor in her room.

Has anyone here been through anything like this and have any advice on getting her to sleep well at night? If I'm at the bottom of the stairs and call up she seems to be happy with that as she knows I'm there - she doesn't seem to need to see me - but obviously I can't be doing that when wife and baby are home...

Thanks in advance, willing to try anything!

We can rearrange rooms if necessary but I'd prefer to be the one to get little sleep than my wife as I'm used to it and have never been the best sleeper myself! The baby is teething and bfeeding at night (particularly in this hot thirsty weather) so wakes about 4-5 times. I'm frustrated certainly but not resentful, it's certainly not something I want to sort out for my sake in particular but for all of us.

NapQueen I definitely agree on the bedtime thing, as of tonight my wife will start the routine earlier and get her into bed and if she's still awake by the time I'm home I'll read her a story, if not I'll see her in the night! Her current routine is bath then a bottle of warm milk with a couple of episodes of Peppa Pig then a story in bed when I'm home if she hasn't fallen asleep. Reading it back to myself it definitely doesn't look like a good thing at all to be having TV after bath.

Thanks again for all the messages, I'll update in the morning if not before!

For the bedtime routine it would be better to drop the Peppa Pig or do it before bath as there is some evidence that screens before bed can disrupt sleep.

Sounds like you and your wife are both having a hard time. Hope you crack it!

We had some trouble with our toddler not wanting to be in his bed after our baby was born- maybe a similar sort of thing? He had been a brilliant sleeper then went to wakening up every few hours and crying for us. In the end I tried leaving his special train nightlight on all night (I thought it was crazy the first time!) and it sorted it. Could maybe try it in combination with some of the other ideas? I think he wakes up and has something comforting to look at (the train goes round and round and also makes a light pattern on the ceiling). Good luck and hope you crack it really soon

Just a thought but is she missing your wife's attention if you are doing all this? Would it work to sometimes swap in between feeding times for the baby?
Personally I think a very fixed bedtime routine day in day out at the same time is important for toddlers to get sleeping problems resolved. quiet game/jigsaw, bath, milk, teeth clean, quiet story in bed (someone has written a special going to sleep story specially for this purpose, might be worth a try) then hopefully sleep, perhaps with you sitting outside the door. I would probably start off sleeping near and then move onto the landing once that is established. She needs to gradually learn to go to sleep on her own In bed, so that when she wakes she can get back off. If she's falling asleep on the sofa then she's going to bed too late. Just some ideas along the lines that worked for us. Feel free to ignore. Sleep deprivation is awful so I do sympathise.

Sounds obvious - but does she have a nightlight? I slept with a light on until I was about 10 because the dark scared me. I still hate sleeping in pitch black. Is there anything in particular she's scared of?

I think if she's falling asleep in one place then waking in another she probably feels a real uncertainty about sleep - where will she wake up next sort of thing.

The sofa thing is a maximum of half the time and only very recent. Agreed not good and has now been stopped.

Night lights on or off make no difference. Tonight's routine has so far been dinner bath book bed and then massive tantrum, I need a wee (took her to do one), back to bed, I need a poo (took her to do one) back to bed at which point I said I'm going into my bedroom. Major meltdown and within 90 seconds had been sick all over the pillow, the floor, took her to bathroom and then again on the hall carpet and in the toilet.

Currently scrubbing the two week old carpet!

Not sounding harsh but one of her parents has moved out more than once - no wonder she wants to check u are still there during the night! When the baby arrived and it was only u who went to her during the night she prob felt abandoned by her mother. A year without reassurance from her may have made her anxious now. Many kids have sleep problems but families don't split up trying to resolve them. Ask your doctor to refer u to a sleep specialist. I did a sleep programme with my year old son and it really did work.

Can she not just sleep in your room or your bed? At least she gets comfort and you all get sleep

Missgraeme I think you've misread or I didn't make it clear. I didn't suddenly start doing nights when the baby came I've always done them so she hasn't had any less reassurance from that point of view.

She doesn't know the others aren't here - they leave after she's gone to bed and are back at the crack of dawn - my parents only live round the corner which is where they're staying.

Artandco I've done a year of sleeping with her / going into her room regularly hence starting the thread on here.

Yes but going into her room isn't helping with you and wife getting sleep. So bring her into your room.
Maybe it's just me, but I find the British culture of getting babies and small children to sleep alone really bizarre ( I'm British also). As an adult almost everyone in a relationship sleeps in same bed, so to not allow children to and make them sleep alone when they obviously don't want to seems contrary.

Put a matress on the floor in your room. Let her sleep there. Close the door. Then if she's up and wandering around bedroom you can sleep as its in the same room. She will likely just climb into bed with you or sleep happily on floor as in same room. You all get to sleep, she is happy to sleep as with you all, win win

My son could vomit on demand. Even his devoted CM noticed it. We would just clean it up in silence and give it no attention.
I think the night thing is a combination of anxiety and attention and you have to break both separately. She is old enough for you to ask her WHY she needs you at night. Tell her that Papa is there and so is Mummy but you will not talk to her. If she wakes up, she can switch on her light, drink water, remind herself where Papa is (maybe you can draw a chart and stick it on the wall). And for every night she doesn't call out she gets a reward and after 5 nights a bigger reward. You explain this to her in the day. Repeat and reinforce when she is calm. Don't introduce this at bedtime.
The whole climbing over gates, vomiting, screaming has become her way of dealing with attention.
And no 3 weeks is not that long a time. I would keep a sleep diary. Mine went through an 18 month sleep regression and for 6 weeks I kept a diary. There were days in those 6 weeks we felt we hadn't made any improvements but reading it cumulatively I could see it all got much better. But more incrementally than I had imagined.

Is there any way that a nap/very quiet time on the sofa during the day could be reinstated? It's just that in one of your posts you said that your wife would try and put her to bed to be asleep before you got home and you kind of joked that you would see her in the night- maybe she misses you during the day? My friends dd has dropped her nap recently and she now more or less falls asleep in the car on the way home- if she wakes in the night she's just desperate to see her parents so she will not go back to sleep.
Personally I'd push for a nap/very quiet time I the afternoon, wait until you get home for milk for toddler then youdo bath for both babies then straight to your room for milk for the baby and story for toddler (all cuddled up on your bed) then into bed for both. Tbh if one of mine was waking like this I'd opt for a mattress/bed in your room and all sleep together. At least you'd get some sleep.

We moved our youngest, dd 13 months into her own room last weekend and she's been waking 2/3 times a night (she did this before when she was in our room, dp thought moving her would stop it) and one of us has had to go up and literally put our hand on her head and she goes back to sleep. Dp is not keen but she's coming back into our room if this continues as I'm sick of going upstairs! Some children just need to know you're there. Sometimes it's easier just to accept that and have them in with you??

Sleep apnea? Mine woke multiple times in the night, after crying or wanting reassurance and it turned out to be huge tonsils/adenoids causing her to momentarily stop breathing which was scary so she work up and wanted comfort

We were referred to a consultant and did a sleep study at home. 3.5 years of so very little sleep and it was honestly magic having them out....

Hi,
Just wanted to say that you are not alone in this situation. I have a DD who is 2 years 8 months and we have been having problems with her sleep since she was 18 months. She goes to sleep in her own bed (but only with me sitting in her room) and then will inevitably wake in the night, screaming the house down and wanting to be in our bed. I am currently 34 weeks pregnant and my husband has been the one who has had to sleep with her; he also has a demanding job and it is taking its toll on us all.
We have tried various things that have been suggested to us like controlled crying techniques but we find that she just ends up wide awake, crying for hours until the point we give in and take her in our bed, where she then instantly falls asleep. She has a very nervous personality and this all started a long time before I was pregnant, so I know it isn't baby related. Many people say to us about being tougher and riding out the nights of crying, but it is incredibly hard and the option of some sleep with her there always seems to win out over spending the whole night trying to make her stay in her own bed. We do have people say to us that she's only little and it's not the end of the world. I would prefer it to not be happening, but struggling with resolving it. This post looks great for suggestions anyway; just wanted to say that I know where you are coming from and it's so hard to know what to do for the best.

Hi, firstly just wanted to say I am sorry to hear you are going through this - it sounds so hard!

Secondly, my advice would be, bribery! Your daughter is old enough yo value and desire certain toys - set up a reward chart whereby a certain amount of stars (it has to benot too many, so it is unachievable - but not too few also) and she gets a decent toy as a reward.

This is not the way I ever planned to raise my child - but you NEED sleep. And once you've cracked the bed time habits, the need for the chart and the bribery dissipates very quickly, IMHE. My daughter had a spell, at around 3 and a half, of yelling for us and being super-demanding any time she woke - but the introduction of the (decent) rewards changed that and now, at 4 and a half, she is quite capable of lying in bed entertaining herself until she falls asleep, or if she wakes at night (she is allowed a torch, and whatever books, stickers, suitable toys etc she wants in bed). The idea is that she can do what she likes in bed, but has to respect that bed time is bed time, and she only calls us if she really needs us. And it works. But I cost us a fair bit in bribery to get here.

Good luck!

It is very unnatural for small DC to have to sleep alone.

My own DD only really managed to sleep alone happily this year, aged 10. We had no problem with it - she slept in our room until she was 5 and in a bedroom with a connecting door until this year. We moved and she now, happily, has a room quite a few metres from ours.

Maybe you should try to move your DD closer to you at night?

I definitely agree you need a rigid bedtime routine. We do dinner, play, milk, bath (every other night), story, bed. Also if she gets up, take her straight back to bed, no talking other than to say 'l love you, night night'.
I don't envy you, you must be knackered.

Thanks for the replies, good to hear we're not alone! I'm definitely not a fan of the idea of continuing to sleep together at this age, as I say I've done it for a year (which again I think has been a mistake) and believe a line needs to be drawn somewhere and that a child shouldn't be in charge. I'm sure this could be right for some but just not for me.

After the initial drama last night - LuchiMangsho it did look like she was actually trying to vomit as a last ditch attempt after then two trips to the toilet - things went better. She woke again when I sat down for dinner at about half 8, went in and settled her and sat outside the room and then after that not until 1:55 and 5:05 (both times I put her back to bed and told her I was going to my room, though still had to call up to her from my bed so she knew I was there) before up for good at 7ish.

It certainly seems like progress, fingers crossed for another improvement tonight. Will report back.

Mov1ngOn - the sleep apnea is an interesting one, glad to hear you resolved it. Was it always the case that you had problems with sleep or were there patches where she had slept through?

Lovelydiscusfish - Unfortunately we've tried every bribe under the sun from PP World to sweets to going round to her friends house and she fully understands in the day exactly what we mean but there's just no reasoning at night as she works herself into such a state.

I love the way some people think co-sleeping is the answer to everything. We tried it and DD hated it! Good luck OP and hope you get some sleep soon!

Was just thinking the same. My children have never been able to settle well when co sleeping they prefer to be left alone to get on with it! If co sleeping solved everything this board wouldn't be so popular!

How did last night go OP?

I'm no expert on toddlers, my baby is only 3 months old, but from my own experience as a child: I used to fall asleep in my own bed but would always go into my parents room at night and sleep with them. I don't think gates were in use back then, at least not where we lived! I know it's not much help, but I would just let the child sleep with me, she clearly needs that closeness!

The problem with that is nobody gets a decent quality of sleep. They wake up and shout out rather than getting themselves back to sleep, you get woken by them and then they roll around etc in the bed or can be disturbed by you. It really isn't ideal for anyone involved, from our experience anyway.