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12 months of bad sleep, illness etc...

20 replies

OuiOui · 03/06/2004 15:11

Ds2 is coming up to his first year birthday and I am coming to the end of my tether. Seeming to be a baby who never really needed to sleep very much but happy co-sleeping, rocking to sleep etc, I decided enough was enough at around 7 months. Tried CC but didn't work as I don't believe in it anyway. Then did the Baby Whisperer Pick up Put down method and suddenly wahey, ds2 was going to sleep at 7pm and waking a few times at night but sleeping til 6am and 2 naps a day.
It was exciting but still rather erratic and unreliable and then the onset of 2 weeks pnmeumonia and then 2 weeks family hols and we started again.
Again, settling down ok but still waking several times
a night rather inconsolably so no hope of him putting himself back to sleep.
Then another 2 weeks of sickness and got better few days ago but sleep is now ALL OVER THE PLACE!!! aaargh.
Some nights he'll turn over and sleep (admittedly not all night) but most nights takes ages to settle - pull up on bars screaming need to pat him and lay him down with soothing noises etc etc and will wake several times at night but really quite awake.
I think he has what I'd call a "sleep problem" - he just can't do it! (maybe inherited from me - am insomniac myself)
I burn lavender and bergamot oils, he has his dummy attached to his sleeping bag etc etc
It's not just that he's a bad sleeper, but he's not even consistent! I have no idea what my evening/night is going to be like (just poor or atrocious!)
oh and just to top it off, he;s now decided to only drink a few oz milk a day.
All advice and experiences of the same gratefully received?

OP posts:
Nutcracker · 03/06/2004 15:15

Sorry to hear this Ouioui. I can truely sypmathise as my Dd2 didn't sllep through until she was 14 mths old.
Unfortunatly I think that her problem was to do with her asthma. As soon as that was diagnosed at 14mths and she was given medication, she started to sleep alot better.
I'm not sure I can really offer any advice as you seem to have tried everything.

Are there any sleep clinics by you ????
If there is I would definatly contact them.
There weren't any by me, but i would have gladly gone bankrupt to pay for treatment at one with Dd.

Clayhead · 03/06/2004 15:19

OuiOui, no advice but plenty of sympathy. ds is 9 months now and still waking 4 or 5 times a night, dd did it for ages too, I know how tiring that is. Illness always seems to affect them so much and throw things out.

One thing though, dd stopped bf at 12 months (she just didn't want to anymore) and has never had a drink of milk since. I don't think it is of much consequence at this age.

Hope things get better for you.

dinosaur · 03/06/2004 15:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

strangerthanfiction · 03/06/2004 20:17

OuiOui, this sounds really hard for you, and to be honest it's not good for your ds either. You both need your sleep. And this can't go on forever. First of all, do you think there may be any kind of illness that's affecting your ds seeing that he's also gone off his milk at the same time? I'd rule that out before doing anything else if I were you.

My dd was the opposite to your ds in that she was a fantastic sleeper from about 2 months old until she was around 15 months then a period of illness / some anxieties messed it all up and she was really all over the place and as you describe, not even predictably bad! We tried everything, I mean everything, before we resorted to cc and by the time we tried it we were desperate and had very good advice and read Richard Ferber's book so did it by the letter and it worked when all else failed. It was horrible for 2 nights, then not too bad for 3 nights and at the end of 2 weeks she was sleeping like a dream all night with no problems at bed time. She's 20 months now and still sleeping very well. More to the point if she now becomes unsettled in the night we know what to do to reassure her without causing another sleep problem to arise.

I totally respect your decision not to do cc but I'm wondering why you are so against it? You may have a completely valid reason, but I just wanted to say a few things in its favour. Before I read Richard Ferber I think I thought it was a cruel technique in which you left a child to cry but in fact it's not really like that and you can actually do it in a very gentle way. Even if you absolutely don't want to do it I do recommend that you read the chapter of his book called something like 'what we associate with falling asleep.' It made so much sense to me and dp that it encouraged us to try his method. But you have to believe in it and you have to do it properly.

Just to recap slightly what Ferber says about sleep associations. He asks the reader to imagine how they fall asleep themselves. We have a bed and a pillow (usually). Now if someone took our pillow away in the middle of the night and we woke up and found it not there we'd wake up with quite a shock and be frantically looking round for it. If this started to happen regularly every night we'd also start to be anxious about going to sleep, wondering where / when our pillow disappeared. Ferber believes that all the 'putting to sleep' techniques we parents to, be they rocking, feeding, patting the back, are relied upon like we rely on a pillow. They are what a child NEEDS in order to fall asleep. However, every time they wake up and their 'pillow' isn't there it makes them anxious and they wake fully until the 'pillow' returns and they can sleep again. Does this make sense?

In actual fact, all the 'kind' things one does to help a child to sleep are in the end not particularly kind. We, altough never ever intending it, are often the cause of our child's sleep problems. They may prevent crying in the immediate short term but they don't make for a confident sleeper and instead of going through a very short period of crying when doing cc, you are prolonging the bad sleeping for months, perhaps years, perhaps a lifetime. I was a child who was 'put to sleep' by my parents and I've been an awful sleeper all my life, very insomniac.

Ok, this is just one opinion. You'll get lots of others which may be much better. Let us know how you get on?

OuiOui · 03/06/2004 21:38

it's now 330 am and ds2 is awake for the 3rd or is it 4th time? the first time took me 1 hour to resettle and now he's crying again and can't settle.
he's so tired
This is not normal!

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OuiOui · 04/06/2004 05:42

i finally succumbed and slept with him on the guest bed and we both slept for almost 4 hours.
stgrangley this morning he drank loads of milk
something funny's going on

I really don't want to do cc - when i did it before he cried for about 6 hours non stop - didn't even fall asleep exhausted. then he uesd to be hysterical each time he saw his cot.

with the bb whisperer method, he's much happier apart from the last 2 nights

any answers?

OP posts:
strangerthanfiction · 04/06/2004 09:26

Ok, OuiOui, but just finally, when you did cc did you do it according to a definite plan like the one in Ferber? That would never advocate leaving him to cry for 6 hours. Even at dd's worst it was never longer than an hour and during that hour we'd be in and out regularly to calm and reassure her.

If the Baby Whisperer method worked before can you try it again? I have to say for us that it was a disaster, dd got so used to us picking her up and putting her down that she needed that on and off all through the night and never properly learned to sleep on her own.

OuiOui · 04/06/2004 13:50

I feel like I don't know anything any more.
No I've never actually read Ferber's method - just been going on the tried and testeds that have been discussed on Mumsnet.
The thing is when I kept going in he just got much worse when I left. It was plain hysteria.
Even if I just stayed in the room next to the cot, he was clinging and screaming until I picked him up and gave cuddles.

With the Bb Whisperer, he calms down and until recently, could get himself off to sleep a few nights a week and then on more idfficult ones, would need patting and shhsshing.

He suddenly drank loads of milk today and also ate huge amounts. I also gave him some drops for trapped gas just in case.

I think it's separation anxiety and then maybe some developmental things going on as he's just started on a walker and is so active now.

OP posts:
pamina3 · 04/06/2004 14:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

strangerthanfiction · 04/06/2004 14:26

I personally don't think any kind of sleep training works if there's an underlying issue going on like illness or teething or a new anxiety about something.

When we did cc with dd we were at the point where we couldn't any longer put her sleep problem down to anything other than that she needed to learn how to sleep on her own without our 'helping' her. As I said we tried all the other methods, sitting in the room, picking up putting down but they didn't work. When we did do cc it truly was only bad for 2 nights.

But, hey, it's entirely up to you in the end. One thing is certain though with whatever you do you have to be consistent. So if one day you cuddle your ds to sleep, the next try sitting in the room, it won't work. They are much more habitual than you imagine and they learn how to sleep like they learn everything else we want to teach them. If you teach them that sleep is associated with cuddles or a parent sitting by the bed, then that's how they sleep and that's what they need repeated when they wake in the night. So you have to decide what you most want to do and stick with it for better or worse.

Heathcliffscathy · 04/06/2004 14:39

scarily habitual imo strangerthanfiction: I reckon doing something twice is enough to form a habit

strangerthanfiction · 04/06/2004 15:01

I reckon so too sophable. That's how cc or any 'method' for that matter works. They just need to be guided into the right way. After all they're just as unhappy about waking up and crying in the night as we are. Maybe even more so. I guess that's why in the end I don't think doing some sort of sleep training is cruel because waking up alone and afraid is almost crueller. I also think that the developmental changes which lead to separation anxieties need us to be more consistent and confident about what we're doing than ever. If we seem upset or dithery about things that feeds into their insecurities. It's all so much easier said than done though. No-one likes to hear their child cry, we all want to do the best for them and just have to choose the best way for everyone and stick to it.

OuiOui · 04/06/2004 16:26

ditto to the 2 day habits. However, quicker to form when it's hte "nice" habits
ok - can somebody explain to me why cc can help a child sleep better.
in my mind, cc breeds more neediness, calling out for attention and seems very cruel that noone will come and help! Why after a few days would they sleep better?
Surely it's more a feeling of hopelessness/desperation that leads to sleep.

I too have the problem of waking up dd1 and Iive in an apartment block too!

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CountessDracula · 04/06/2004 16:34

OuiOui cc worked for my dd at 8 months. After 3 nights she dropped off to sleep and that was it for 12 to 13 hours.

I think it works because they finally realise that if they cry no-one will come and get them up, just come in, pat them and go again. So it's not really worth the effort, they may as well just go to sleep. IMVHO that is!

I did it first at night for settling. Then during the night to prevent night waking (that took two nights only!). Then in the mornings for early waking.

I hated doing it but since 9 months I have basically had a baby who sleeps 8pm till 9am ish. Even later sometimes.

When she is ill of course I don't do it. And we have to do a little bit of re-training when she is better as of course she gets back into the habit of being got up again when she's crying.

HTH

CountessDracula · 04/06/2004 16:35

PS don't know if it was really CC, we just left her in her cot, went in every 5 mins, then 10 min, then 15 mins, said Shhh, it's OK we're here, go to sleep, and then left again. It took about 2 hours the first night, 30 mins the second, 10 the third and that was it.

Beccarollover · 04/06/2004 16:47

Im going to embark on cc to get rid of DS's dummy reliance during the night OuiOui if you would like someone to support you that is also doing it? We could swap notes?

strangerthanfiction · 04/06/2004 20:15

OuiOui, if you can face reading my earlier message to you on this thread, the long one, I explained how / why cc worked as best I could. I recommend that you read Richard Ferber and you'll find it does make sense. Even if you decide not to do cc you'll find his words about sleep associations very useful. But if you can't be bothered to read the book then I did try to sum it up for you in that long message earlier.

Hey, no-one says you HAVE to do it, it might not be for you in the end. I'm just suggesting you read about it and get the gist of what it means and then consider giving it a go. It is the most tried and tested method and if you do it how it says in the book it's really much less 'cruel' than you might think. It's never made dd more clingy and needy or left her feeling neglected. I wouldn't dream of doing it if it did.

I don't think I'm going to say any more about it now though I've said as much as I can, now it's up to you.

MrsCoddyClooney · 04/10/2004 12:51

here it is br

MrsCoddyClooney · 04/10/2004 12:53

here dimmoid

aloha · 04/10/2004 13:51

CC works because they realise that in the end they can go to sleep by themselves and do so! They don't change personalities in the slightest, except, IME, become even sunnier and more cheerful because they've had a decent night's sleep. The whole point of cc is that you do come, but you aren't very interesting, don't pick them up etc. So they aren't 'abandoned' or 'in despair'. Asking you to come in an rock them, cuddle them, play with them etc five times a night is just as unreasonable and unhealthy for them as bars of chocolate instead of meals and putting their finger in the plug socket, and you wouldn't give into that just because they cried, would you?
I agree, read the book, think about it. Even the NCT says cc works and is a useful too. Nobody says you have to do it, but it is effective for most children. There is also an NCT book of Sleep that has other approaches.

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