OMG..reduced to tears...

[livysmum]

I'm having a bit of trouble with my 4.5mth old daughter. The past few days she goes to bed fighting,screaming over her bottles, then when i lay her down she is ok...untill a couple minutes later when she just screams then I have to give her some juice, fight with the milk to see if she wants it, then lay her down only to do it another umpteen times.. is there anyother way to get her to just go back to sleep without the juice and screaming. I'm so lost...do i just let her cry herslf back to sleep? but its like a loud scream cry wouldnt it be mean to leave her?? i'd try pick up and put down but she doesnt even settle when i pick her up. what should i do?

hi..if she is 4.5 months,..she might well be needing a milk feed, and if she is hungry, juice or being left to cry won;t suffice.......keep going with the milk, and feed her in the dark and quiet if you can,,,she will get used to it...she is only little yet..it takes time to get a good night routine and full nights sleep

I wouldn't bother with juice. She's only small, what happens if you cuddle her and walk around or sway, holding her. It's quite early to be expecting her to go to sleep on her own, when you expect it and to stay there. I would try cuddling her and see what happens. But keep it all quiet and low key, don't flaff around too much. Good luck, it's hard being knackered, I know.

Get rid of the juice, it's not doing her any good and keep going with the milk.

What time is this milk/juice drinking. At this age she could be sleeping through with either no night feeds or just one night feed so you may not need to give her anything in which case you are looking at maybe rocking, patting, co-sleeping or teaching her to self settle, dependent upon your parenting style.

ds does exactly that only I don't give him juice I just walk and cuddle. I suspect it's overtiredness, so I plan to try putting him down earlier when he gets over his cold.

or have you tried water/a dummy?

well i havnt tried just swaying to settle her..i'll do that next time she goes off. Its just hard to tell if shes hungry or not.. like now shes hasnt had a milk bottle since 4pm and its now9:30pm so she should want it, but she'll not have it.
I'd love to ditch the juice but if I stop giving her it she'll get constipated.
when she was ummm about 6-7 weeks i think i tried self settling, i just sat in a chair and let her cry as i patted her bum gently.. and after 15mins she stoped.. but when i did that last week she screamed non stop and just gave herself wind making it worse.
I cant co sleep because the hubby is a deep sleeper and would forget in the night and not hear her over his LOUD snoring

Livysmum, my DD did this at about the same age so you have my sympathy! It was relentless, and like your daughter, mine continued to scream even when I picked her up and would not be comforted. In the end, when I cut back on her daytime naps and stopped obsessing about giving her a bedtime (and decided not to put her to bed until she was ready to drop), she started to get much more tired and was able to get to sleep much more easily. She has also ended up "picking" her own bedtime, which happily is 7pm. How much daytime sleep is your DD getting - it might be worth thinking about whether it is too much for her.
Also, I don't think that a baby of this age needs juice at all. If she is hungry then she needs milk and having a bottle should satisfy her. If she doesn't want milk, then I doubt she is crying because she wants juice, so I would look for some other reason for the crying.
Hope that helps, I know this can be really exhausting!

I'm a sleep trainer - there are many techniques you can try.

I usually use going in every 2 mins and leaving again but every parent/child is different.

Language - verbal and body - is very important.

Sorry Livysmum - lots of crossed posts! What time are you trying to settle your daughter for bed and when in the day does she have her last nap? From what you've just described I can't help wondering if the problem is the opposite of what I just said (sorry to be confusing!) - sometimes I think they get too tired to eat, then get all worked up and turn into screaming lunatics. Does that sound likely?

I think leaving her to cry before 6 months - for any length of time is not the way to go.

For the sake of your sanity - take the path of least resistance where possible. Keep offering milk etc, cuddle her to sleep etc.

I look at the following:

Pattern of the day - is there a balance of crescendo of activity through the day?

Nap times - when is the last, how many, how long?

Pre-bed routine - is it soothing and calm but not too lengthy or short?

Verbal cues

Physical cues

And tons of other stuff but the above are starting points?

This is how we get through the days

UP at about 6 for a feed, then wont go back in cot - she just laughs at herself so she ends up on my tummy to get to bed then i sneek her into her cot

up at 8- Smiles, change nappy, play

9 or 10 ish bottle

10:30 nap about 1 hour

up 11:30 juice, play in gym cuddle

1pm- nap for 45 mins-1hr

2pm - milk bottle, walk in pram (if nice out) play

4pm - smiles and chatting maybe juice or milk

5pm- nap

6pm- see hubby and family,
bath-10mins
massage - 15mins with songs (twinkle star)
book if she's still wide awake and not rubbing eyes yet
milk or juice
wind
Bed
^--this is where it goes wrong, she screams when she doesnt want the juice or milk then starts the circle of up and down juice milk thing

I have the bedroom on with the lamp, then when she has a bottle i put on the indigo light off the monitor and shut the lamp off.
Figure me out.. where am i going horibly wrong?? lol.

I'd try and keep milk to just before each nap with supplements between if necessary, i.e if she has less naps. In the mornign you do this but seems like not in the afternoon - is that right?

Also, try and look at each paly session - does it involve quiet reflective or independent play at teh start leading to busy carer led play followed by relaxed one to one cuddly play? This might be useful to try.

5pm seems late for a last nap...

I'd cut out all the juice - I don't think it will be helping her - full of sugar and/or artifical sweeteners. Try fennel tea instead if you need to.

And the 5pm sleep is far too late I think. Try and move the 1pm nap to 2pm gradually and for a bit longer than 1 hour if possible.

Ditch the evening routine for a couple of weeks. Perhaps put the pram in the hall way and put her in it if you need to get things done. Bath at maybe 7.30 and then try to keep evening low key until she drops off to sleep.

A new Day

yesterday her last milk bottle was at 4pm and she didnt wqant another milk bottle till 3 AM!!! I was very worried.
this morning she was up at 7:30 for a nappy change and then back to sleep for 9am.
had a play with her vtech leaning thingy then the battle began for juice. But i stuck to my guns and gave her milk instead at 10 am. she screamed and screamed but i feel like all the info that you all gave me about juice being no good has made me feel batter about taking it away. Thanks guys.

CRUSTS.
What is ment by 'reflective or independent play at teh start leading to busy carer led play' I'm not sure what kind of play is reflective. Indepent play i get and i'm not sure what Busy carer led play is. I'm still new at this lol sorry. but thank you for the help, i'm sure thats what i'm doing wrong too... I'm letting her play in her play gym at like 4pm adn her vtech flashylight, signing, dancing, touchy toy late at night.

Hiya - sorry for being jargony. There's nothing to 'get' as these are just personal terms really so my fault for confusing you!

Play would go like this:

Independent play:

This allows you to get on with jobs and stuff for the day and is a goof time to use the baby gym or similar. It works well to begin the morning like this after the morning milk when she is feeling content and alert and is not needy of your attention.

The reflective part might be things like allowing her to talk to the ceiling or the curtains or investigate objects independently. This is a good time for babies to consolidate their learning. So long as you are keeoing an eye on her she will be quite happy playing alone for a while.

Busy, carer-led play:

This play comes after the independent time and when you have finished doing the things you need to do so that you have the space to focus on your daughter fully.

This type of play might be some rough and tumble, a visit somewhere new, playing with a toy together or a sing song session with her on your knee and actions. Anything that gets her focused, stimulated and thinking. When she is older you can include thing s like a walk together or drawing or painting, etc.

One to one cuddly play:

This isn't part of the bedtime routine but it is a bit of a pre-sleep wind down. You keep your daughter close and chat or sing quietly with her, cuddling her and making lots of physical contact and eye contact. Maybe looking out of the window together and talking about what you see in a quiet way, maybe a lullaby or two or a story to share. After this you can change her nappy and feed her before you think about putting her down to sleep.

You can also use independent play at this point sometimes but it needs to be quiet, like the reflective play described above and not too busy. If you use TV or DVDs these could be used now - it depends on your day and your need to have some time to get things done too!

Hope that helps.

yes that helps alot. At the moment i think that I'm constantly at her side playing with her, so it'll be nice to have to entertain herself.

Lately though I've been having a problem with her bottles. What she does is wakes up plays, bottle nap, but to get her to take the bottle is a big do. I have to pick her up with one arm and feed her with the other while walking around and after like 2-3 mins I sit down and sometimes she's ok with me sitting down but sometimes she kciks off again and I have to settle her by a walk and feed again. Is this how its always going to be... a constant power struggle??