can you talk to me about pick up put down?

[BusyCee]

DC3 is coming up for onths and I'm belatedly getting her into a bedtime routine. She goes down ok but wakes shortly afterwards and howls. She roots for boob, I give in and feed her because I'm knackered and its a tactical answer. But it's not a long term solution I know.

Tonight I want to start pick up put down. I seem to remember this;

• first cries, sooth with voice and hand on chest
• if she carries on pick her and soothe in arms until she calms, then out her down
• repeat until she sleeps
• use the same phrases, eg, don't worry darling, it's just time for sleep, so she learns the words

Anything else I should recall...?

Have I asked about bedside cot?

Much easier to settle baby while you are lying in bed. Take one side off full sized cot and butt it up to your bed.

4 months old really is too young to be leaving baby to cry. Sorry

She'll struggle to learn to like her Moses basket unless you ease her into it gently. I think you need to work on the gentle retreat method.

She isn't ready to just be left in the basket alone and she makes that known to you, the only way she can. By crying.

If you were to let her sleep on you for a few nights, then next to you, then near you - gradually moving a tiny bit further away each night, then she might eventually get used to it. I'm afraid it won't happen overnight. You have to invest a bit of time into it and also accept the way things are.

It's so bloody tough, I have been there with only one. I cannot imagine how much harder it is to have other children to care for at the same time. But you can do it, it won't always be like this.

I am beginning to wonder by the tone of your posts, if actually the best solution might be to embrace co-sleeping? It would probably buy you the sleep you are in need of. Then if you are more rested and perhaps have less other stuff going on, you can look again at training your DD. Sometimes the path of least resistance is the best solution

4 months old really is too young to be leaving baby to cry.
Pick-up put-down is not 'leaving baby to cry'. It's very different from controlled crying. You never leave them alone crying.

Keep going OP. The first night is the worst. If you give it up, then everything you went through last night is for nothing.

I would hazard a guess that she is over-tired in the evenings, if she keeps falling asleep at 5 and 6pm. Hence the screaming. Post what you've posted above on the baby whisperer forum, hopefully the experts there will advise you. It's important to sort naps out too, so that she isn't over-tired and over-stimulated.

Pick-up put-down is not 'leaving baby to cry'. It's very different from controlled crying

I know BiscuitMillionaire

To get through the next few days would a sling help- even when ds is at this most sleep refusing a sling and rocking whilst getting on with tea etc finally works so boy child free but hands free at least, then transfer when super sleepy?

Fwiw pupd worked in 2 nights for older child 20 months at the time

Thanks all.

Bedside cot won't fit in our room - only the Moses basket fits.

The issue is solely getting her to sleep earlier. She sleeps perfectly well in the basket once she's down...the problem is that the earliest I've ever got her to sleep in it is 830pm (see pp), because we've got into the habit of letting her sleep on us downstairs until we go to bed (the pattern for that has been that I get down from putting the older two down at 730ish, begin to feed her and am then 'trapped' under her until I go to bed. If I move her or out her down she wakes and cries....). The issue is that with the older two and work starting again next week I can't keep on top of life...or my own need for some time and space....without an earlier bed time for her. I know she needs the sleep. I know she can and does sleep in the Moses basket. In all other things I am - and will continue to be, except 2x4hrs per week when I'll be working - available on demand for her and the other two.

So co-sleeping etc won't resolve the issue. Once she's asleep in the basket she's absolutely fine (wakes at about 130, 330 and then 530 ish each night for a feed and then goes peacefully back to the Moses to sleep ).

Sorry - just re-read and wanted to confirm. She goes to sleep on the boob with no problem at 645/7. Sleeps and unlatches on her own. It's the initial transfer from boob to Moses that is a problem.

So going to sleep; fine. Transfer from boob to basket; problem. Once asleep, spending the night in the basket, and returning after night feeds; fine.

Thanks for direction to baby whisperer forum. I'm off to post there.

Thanks also for your time and thoughts. Appreciate everyone's views - but I have got to get some respite for me in the evenings, in order to be a better parent for the rest of the time. I'm experienced enough to know that just that few hours will make a positive difference to all our lives - which I appreciate may sound selfish to some, particularly as the short time price dd pays is this - but in my assessment of the balance of our lives in understand its for the greater, strategic good...

Hey Busy we did pupd with dd2. I followed a plan for getting a 4 month old with no routine into easy which I found on a baby whisperer forum. If I remember rightly it was 2 naps I the day but (crucially) a short nap around 5/5.30. That meant she was down at 7.30 for the night.
We started from the first nap of the day on day 1 (DH had taken a week off work so we could both put this in place) and it took something like 40 odd times of picking up and putting down. Same nap of day 2 took 3 times - we never looked back!

Thanks Shop! It's good to hear...

I have 3 dds now and totally get the feeling of needing that time to myself more than ever. Dd3 is 14months but it's only recently where I've not felt like I was constantly mum iykwim

Dear op, nothing too useful to add but I do remember with dd1 that getting overtired was a key issue. Looking at your 21:40 post I think she might have been awake a long time after her afternoon nap, especially if you had to rouse her at 5.30. Could you tryfeeding her and putting her down before bedtime stories? I know its difficult with the other two dc waiting but you maybe they could get a treat like a watching some new audio book in their room or watching a quiet programme while you sort baby out. It might make them later for bed than usual but worth a try if only for a short period of time?.... If she finished feeding but then was in your arms for too long while you were reading stories then she might have been in a light slee by the time you took her to her cot?
Sorry if none of this helps, I know only too well the head banging frustration of prolonged sleep deprivation. Dd1 was wonderful, dd2 nearly broke me. Waiting to see what dc3will be like hence reading your thread and trying to remind myself not the horrors!!! Surely I'm due a good-sleeping baby this time...

I know it is so difficult if you are doing bedtime with the other two, many many sympathies.

Now I can't back to sodding sleep!! Everyone else snoring... Am feeling both murderous and a perverse calm as this is my only alone time!!!

Justone - congrats onDC3. If it's reassuring I'm v happy with dd added to our crazy crew. The sleeps hard, but we're all mainly happy! With ds2 I wasn't happy, which made all these same issues harder to deal with iyswim. Was trying to explain to someone today that at least this time round I've got a) perspective and b) a sense of humour. Neither of which I retained with ds2. So all in all we're good! All I need to fix now is some time in the eves so I can remember why I married my husband, and you know, maybe even enjoy his company, possibly even, gasp, have sex with him again!

Most children are not developmentally ready for a 'bedtime' until 5-7 months age. An actual physiological change needs to happen that means daytime naps extend at the same time.

Trying to force the issue before baby is ready is no different to trying to force a non-walking baby to start running.

Quite normal and expected (by the NHS and according to SIDS recommendations) that baby will spend until about 6 months old sleeping in the room with parents (living room, for example) until one parent goes to bed.

Rather than stressing about establishing DC3's bedtime alongside DC1 and DC2 (and mostly failing because baby hasn't reached the development yet), just leave baby downstairs napping.

The stage for 'bedtime' will come soon. You will be unable to force it.

But Fate;

A) that's not my experience of the other two (ok, the first one I did controlled crying --because HVs suggested it and I stupidly thought it was the 'right' thing to do')

B) she does show signs of sleeping routine; regularly off at 830pm -ish, regularly waking at 130;330;530 through the night; fairly regular naps during the day

C) see my PPs. I don't mind where she sleeps. The issue is that I can't put her DOWN. So regardless of which room she's in I'm stuck with her asleep on me. That's the issue I need to resolve. I'd be perfectly happy for her to sleep with us downstairs all evening as long as that's what she did.

D) I have to try to make our whole family work effectively and happily.

E) I've only tried for one night. I held her close throughout. She woke fed as per usual and returned during the night. Is happy, smiley and joyful today. Has napped as usual this morning. I, however am hanging and have no prospect of a meaningful respite of chance to refuel. DH does what he can at the weekends but we're all only human.

I know you have had lots of advice and you will get there i did the shushing pick up put down with dd1 and it will take a few weeks but will work you have 3 young children everything isnt going to run smoothly every day/night

Do you have a bouncy chair you can put her in when she is wailing so you can bounce and shush

O-K.

Your baby is only 4 months old. You are sounding very anxious.

You are very, very stressed about something that your baby just cannot do yet. Just because your baby is still tiny at 4 months old.

Getting this worried about something you cannot and will not change is doing you no good at all.

Considering "training" your baby to do something she is developmentally incapable of will end up in (lots of) tears. And will fail until baby has reached that developmental phase.

Give it a month or two and baby will be able to do this anyway. Stress until that time if you want to. But you won't speed up getting these regardless of what you do.

My answer would be very different if you had a 7 month old, a 9 month old, a 12 month old. Dealing with sleep as a behaviour issues can help then. But you just have a tiny 4 month old. Your expectations so wholly unreasonable.

My DSis's DD1 had to be put down in her cot within 15 mins of falling asleep or she'd wake and cry. Within that first 15 mins they found they could transfer her without waking. Could you give that a try?

Also agree with earlier poster, could she be over tired/over stimulated from school run/DS1 getting in from school? I know it effects my DS.

Fate. I don't think you're reading my posts.

She DOES go to sleep at 7pm. But on the boob. If I left her on the boob she would - and has - slept happily through to the following morning with the night wakes I've described. The issue is being able to put her down.
^^
And please don't describe me as unreasonable. I have x3 DCs, 5 and under. It's hard. I don't have any family support. Im doing my fucking best to keep everyone happy and not burn the fuck out. It is not unreasonable to review what worked with the others DCs; to discuss in a forum here and gain others views; to trial and adapt as suits my family; to read and apply to my own family. My daughter is with me 24hrs a day and I know her intimately. I have no intention of harming her. I am seeking to develop a way for our family to work in the coming weeks that keeps everyone happy, with me being the best mother I can be. I am not seeking to make my life easier for selfish reasons. I am me. And my reasons for seeking a change are valid. I am prepared to accept that change may take time and that it may not take the form I would like (all DCs merrily skipping to bed at 7pm in a Walton-esque manner). But am not unreasonable.

It sounds like she needs a late afternoon nap if she's falling asleep on the boob at tea time. Waking her at that time might be making her overtired come bedtime and possibly why she is then difficult to settle. Personally I'd let her have a late afternoon nap, use a sling if you need to be hands free to deal with the other children. Once she drops that late afternoon nap then bedtime should become easier and earlier, I know you desperately want time to yourself now but you can't force a baby to sleep when you want them to sleep. Sometimes the path of least resistance is the way to go and accepting that things aren't quite how you want them to be for now makes it easier to cope.

It is hard busy. I know it is, I have four children. Without family support and with the added stress of impending return to work must be very tough for you.

I am just trying to help

What about putting her in a bouncy chair? You could carry that around as you are doing bedtime with the other two bouncing and re-inserting dummy through the wailing then carry the chair downstairs and properly get her to sleep when the others are in bed. On her next wake up, feed and then work on getting in bed.

Would you pop smoother in when she falls asleep on boon and comes off? That might help with the transfer then hand on back till you feel her settle completely. I turned my ds2 onto tummy around that age as he was so happy to sleep on me I thought it might suit him and he much prefers it. Obvs I kept a very close eye, have sensor pad and was confident in his neck control..

Hope tonight goes better busy! Funnily enough I too was quite unhappy and more prone to impatience and frustration with dc2 . Reading this is a bit of a wake up callto get ready fir dc3, but my frame of mind is much better and iI think I am better prepared.
Wishing you a more peaceful bedtime tonight - this phase will alsopass - eventually!!

Thanks Justone - I'm sure you'll be fine. The more children I have (!) the less controlling I am and the more flexible I am about things. As I say, I was expecting the worst with #3, but overall she's bought such joy with her

And a step in the right direction this eve. Everyone was late for various reasons. Ds1 went off to bed at 745. Fed her m, she dropped off, put her down...she woke and grumbled. Carried on grumbling. I lifted and held her. She calmed down. I kept hold of her until she was nearly off, put her down and she's asleep!! A whole 15mins earlier than before. So all in all, a bit earlier and a lot less crying.