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Do I really need to sleep train? Six month old bf-ing catnapping co-sleeper

20 replies

northernlassy1 · 22/09/2015 18:58

Apologies to retread old ground but wanted to ask if a baby who co sleeps after I go to bed, wakes a lot in early eve and then feeds three or four or even five times a night will naturally start sleeping through the night? Or do I actually need to sleep train to achieve this for him? He also only catnaps in the day unless we lie down together and I feed him throughout sleep - then he might go for 45 min to 1.5 hrs. I wanted to go with the flow but am worried I've done him a disservice. He won't nap in buggy and is fed/rocked to sleep at night or rocked in sling in day. Overall he gets between 13.5 and 14 hr sleep but no one else can get him to sleep and it's a nightmare to get him down alone in cot for first part of night. Apologies again for common theme and all thoughts welcomed.

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Fuckitfay · 22/09/2015 19:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pinkpowderpuff · 22/09/2015 19:10

He will naturally start sleeping through, everyone does eventually! You just might have to wait 2yrs+ for if to happen! It sounds like you are doing a great job but there are gentle things you can do to help him sleep better. Give The Gentle Sleep Book by Sarah Ockwell-Smith a read, sounds like it might be your kind of thing (sorry if I'm being presumptuous there!)

nottheOP · 22/09/2015 19:17

He will probably sleep through before he goes to school, most do. If you think you can put up with it til then, fair enough. If you want to do any training, gentle or otherwise, it is much better before they can stand up simply as they put up a lot more of a fight by then. Separation anxiety also kicks in at the same time.

I would work on the issues now if it were me.

SerendipityDooDah · 22/09/2015 19:39

He sounds exactly like DS. In utter desperation we tried sleep training at 9 months, to no avail and with a lot of heartache. He wailed for hours with DH trying the gentle patting and shushing at recommended intervals. Finally he fell asleep with his legs stuck through the bars of the cot he'd slid down from standing and just had his little head resting on the bars and slept. For all of 45 minutes, the same sleep cycle we were struggling with already. Then he wailed for several more hours. I had been banished to another floor with earplugs, but his subdued, exhausted and clearly disconcerted state the next day broke me. We nonetheless tried again that night. I managed an hour before sneaking upstairs and finding him rocking in his cot, pulling at his lovey and staring into the dark corner as he wailed, devastated. Nearly 6 years later I well up thinking about it. It was the cruelest thing I've ever done, and for nothing as it didn't work. He is how he is, Gina Ford et al be damned. (Lest you worry for DS, he was so surprised by my appearance and my own, much louder wailing at his pitiful state that he stopped crying at once and quite happily nestled into me for a restorative cuddle and co-sleep.)

Anyway, I made peace at that point with his sleep foibles. It sucked for a long time, kept me and DH from spending afternoons and evenings together as someone had to be with DS for him to sleep, and meant we played musical beds for years. But that's the lot we drew, and now that those years are mostly over I don't regret it, despite most friends and family thinking we're pushovers at best and crazy at worst.

The only advice I can really give is to do what feels right to you and what gives the most people in the house the most sleep. Some little creatures aren't wired to sleep well/independently. He will eventually sleep through, but it might be sometime down the line. You may be able to accelerate that with some training, or not as in our case, but IMO that's more down to your little one's "wiring" than to you.

Sorry it's difficult now -- don't mean to be negative as I do know many folks who've had success with training! Good luck whatever you decide.

northernlassy1 · 22/09/2015 21:04

Oh god I need to really get on with it don't I!!! Thankyou so much for replies - I was sticking head in sand thinking he could just sleep with me til whenever, or when he started sleeping through.... Will def look out that book pink, ta, and notthe yes I guess I need to get going ASAP really. Fffay I suspect I will more likely be on same track. I love the nighttime cuddles so am anxious but feel also that I'm being selfish in not teaching him to self settle

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northernlassy1 · 22/09/2015 21:05

Ps serendipity that sounds an utter nightmare thanks for sharing

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Pinkpowderpuff · 22/09/2015 21:26

He can sleep with you until whenever, as long as you are happy with that being the case. That book I recommended normalises sleep for infants/children and doesn't advocate conventional sleep training. She comes from the approach of bedsharing and night feeding being very normal for children but has advice on how to get them sleeping better even if bedsharing. It's not a 'quick fix' book as she believes night waking is very normal. So not one to read if you want a training technique as such.

northernlassy1 · 22/09/2015 22:06

That sounds like just what I am after. I don't really want to do anything strict, it might sound a bit weak but I want to go with his natural rythms as much as poss, as long as am not harming him if you see what I mean. Is it the genuine case tho that some babies just sleep better than others?? He never settled alone in a Moses or even in sidecar crib, just wouldn't relax.... Yet my friends babies would even sleep on the mat at Pilates!

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Pinkpowderpuff · 23/09/2015 07:33

It's not weak at all and definitely not harmful! It is so natural for our babies to be close during the night, it is unnatural to put them in a room on their own and expect them to sleep for however many hours straight, but western society has made us think this is what should be done and you feel like a failure if you can't. Of course babies differ in sleep habits/abilities, just like some adults find sleep difficult. Give the book a read, will put your mind at rest.

Duggee · 23/09/2015 07:39

Please don't do any harsh sleep training. It can really mess with attachment t especially as he is used to co sleeping and breast feeding. Sleep does get better on its own. You can try gentle sleep training like methods I the no cry sleep solution book if you want to speed it up. You are not being selfish but not sleep training.

The reason bf co sleeping babies wake up so much is usually because the associate sucking with sleep, so every sleep cycle they wake and need to suck to get back to sleep. The no cry sleep solution book can help with this!

SerendipityDooDah · 23/09/2015 08:02

You're definitely not harming him by going with his rhythms and needs!

I met a woman on an airplane once, flying with her 3 DC: 12, 5 and 17 months. We got to talking about sleep, and she said DS1 was a great sleeper, as was the youngest. The middle DS, a lovely little lad, didn't sleep through the night until 3, and even at 5 yo she still had to lie with him each night. She was so matter of fact about it -- different kids, same environment and parenting, nonetheless different sleep needs and patterns. No big deal. She actually enjoyed it as it ensured she always had one on one time with the middle child. I found it so reassuring.

I asked all the same questions as you. I'd look around at parents having a leisurely lunch while their baby slept in a pram and think why won't he? No exaggeration: DS never did that. Not once. He wouldn't sleep in the car, pram, Moses basket, cot, "snuggle nest" thing we got for co-sleeping, swing, etc. He'd sleep on a person. The end. Once I quit fighting that and let him get on with what did work for him, we all coped better.

He has always been super active and engaged and still finds it hard to switch off for sleep even now. It's just how he works.

If it makes you feel any better, although sleep has been challenging, lots of other typical infancy and childhood things have been a breeze: potty training and getting rid of his dummy, for example, were complete non-issues. It helped me to think of it as sleeping (and eating, really, as he is on the picky end of things) being less than ideal but everything else being easy so it felt more balanced.

nottheOP · 23/09/2015 08:56

Please don't do any harsh sleep training. It can really mess with attachment

There is no evidence of this. Children are harmed by abuse which is being left alone all the time and never being responded to. A loved, nurtured child is not going to be adversely affected by 3 nights of sleep training. Arguably, it is better for their development to get a full nights sleep.

nottheOP · 23/09/2015 08:59

Is it the genuine case tho that some babies just sleep better than others??

Yep. You can encourage 'good' sleep habits and I think it can certainly be improved upon but some babies are just sleepers, or not. One of my DN's only needs 10 hours sleep in 24 hours, another is still quite happy with 14+ at 4 years old.

Pinkpowderpuff · 23/09/2015 09:13

It can mess with attachment, there is evidence if you look for it...... It's just not widely known for obvious reasons.....

Pinkpowderpuff · 23/09/2015 09:14

And it begins with 3 nights of sleep training but it needs repeating regularly if things regress for various reasons, so ends up being many more than 3 nights...... In fact, if it just takes 3 nights initially then you are very lucky!

nottheOP · 23/09/2015 09:37

And another one pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/09/04/peds.2011-3467

nottheOP · 23/09/2015 09:43

'Regularly or intensely distressed babies grow into unhappy and stress-reactive (inflexible, self-focused) adults that we all have to live with (Read: Gerhardt, 2005).

I still read that as 'don't leave your baby to cry indefinitely and be neglectful' no shit

Pinkpowderpuff · 23/09/2015 11:46

www.isisonline.org.uk/how_babies_sleep/sleep_training/considerations/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=middlemiss+asynchrony

Basically, each baby/child and parent differs so any study carried out cannot be applied to a general cohort or an individual. IMO, anything that feels wrong as a mother, with regards to childrearing, generally is. Some parents can listen to their child cry and not be bothered (very rare!) But when my babies cry my instinct is to comfort. Babies are very adaptable and most eventually cope with being molded to what society expects of them regarding sleep, but some don't. I don't think any mother should feel like she should sleep train when she is doing as nature intended, not what society expects.

The study you linked to did sleep training on infants aged between 8 - 10 months, not 6 months (2 months is a long time in a baby's life) and also only looked for signs of sleep training being harmful up to age 6..... I think they should have extended to adulthood...... We live in a pretty messed up world.....

Anyway, OP, do what you have to..... They grow up quickly!!

northernlassy1 · 23/09/2015 18:19

I am reading that gentle sleep book on kindle iPhone it's great!!! He does feel like a primitive little creature. Feel a lot better - thanks. As long as I am not doing him a disservice/harm by continuing in this way now I don't mind - I guess the issue will really come when it's time for work so it's whether I want to 'deal' with it now or not. I love having him in the bed tho. Thanks again all, I'm addicted to reading about babies' sleep so delighted to get good responses.

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