Sleep training - Cry it out (tired crying not hunger/pain) vs. nurse and into cot repeat?

[everynameinuse]

Starting sleep training, because......

We have been co sleeping, which started as she had colic and it was just the best way for us all to maximise sleep. At four months though it is becoming unsustainable. She can't seem to sleep unless she is latched on, so there are constant let downs. She is feeding more at night than day. I am getting less and less sleep. It has to stop.

Sleep training not going well anyway!

Cry it out initially wasn't an option for me and we went along the lines of pick up/put down. I feed her then put her down just as she is dosing off. She will come round and begin a tired cry which goes up and down in intensity. If she sees you or you go to comfort her in any way other than nursing, (ie.rocking shush/pat etc) the scream is upped in intensity - presumably as she has an audience. (Maybe I am not persevering with alternative comfort methods for long enough?)

Unless I am going to nurse her, going to offer comfort just seems to make things worse.

So.....do I just leave her to cry it out? I only mean at the level of the tired cry - not the baby murder/dying of starvation scream!! If so, how long can she possibly keep it up for? Seemingly hours! Will she eventually just be exhausted and do the same thing over again next time, or will she learn to self soothe?

Or, do I pick her up and nurse her again until she just starts drifting off and keep doing it over and over in the hope that she stays down at some point? Again though, will it just be because she is exhausted or, will she eventually get the hint!

I wonder, unless I let her cry it out she is going to wake up every hour (less in her case) unable to get back to sleep without a nipple in her mouth.

Literally nothing else works, pacifiers etc etc etc. Any other form of comfort seems to wind her up more, so cry it out or nurse/cot nurse/cot.....?

Does that make sense? I would be grateful for shared experiences or general thoughts. I wonder if I just need to stick to one of the above and give it a good few nights, and expect to get little sleep in that time. Unfortunately, it means she gets little sleep too, which makes for an unhappy household! Still, co sleeping just not an option any more!

I did controlled crying when DD was 6 months so I'm not against sleep training at all. Far from it, I'm one of its most fervent supporters. But I'm afraid even I think that 4 months is a bit too small.

Have you tried a dummy? If you have, try again and put her down driwsy in the cot/Moses basket. Things change almost daily at that stage and a dummy might do the trick.

And . It is bloody, bloody hard.

I think she's too young for sleep training which involves crying (and I have used controlled crying with older babies so I am not 100% against it).
PUPD just winds some babies up imo.
I'd persevere with non-feeding methods of settling a bit longer. At four months their sleep patterns change a bit so sleep can be a bit disturbed anyway.
Otherwise yes, nurse til asleep ten put into cot if you don't want to cosleep anymore. You might find that helps a bit with the night wakings anyway once she gets used to it.

Yeah I think nurse cot nurse cot, and just hope her resolve less than my own.....!! I don't mind doing feedings all through the night. I just need to be able to put her down again which is the tricky bit at the moment. Hopefully she will start it get used to it. She will, won't she......?!!!

I'd try the dummy again. Nurse to sleep (if it works it works!) then put into cot and if/when she stirs pop in a dummy and hold until she starts to suck on it. 4 months is too young for cio or cc (as pp I'm by no means against cc-I did it with ds), it just won't work. You have my symapthies, co sleeping is often trotted out as the "if all else fails" (along with cc) but if you don't get any more sleep then there's no point is there?

Yes she will get used to it. In the meantime do all the usual stuff.....nap when she naps, catch up at weekends.....try not to pass out with tiredness.

Also- and it's a bit controversial on mn and I've obviously no idea how you'd feel about it...but loads of mums swear by a bedtime bottle????

Before 6 months I used to comfort him in the cot rather than out of is so all the patting stroking shushing he liked on he basis of once he was asleep there was no mission to move him. He grew out of falling asleep on me about that ages so had to have a re-think. Now he is older I am looking to offer less comfort and get him putting himself to sleep, some days this works without a single tear other days not so much!

So glad you posted this. I'm having the same problem. 3 month old permanently stuck to my breast. Refuses dummy. Is bedtime bottle a bottle of formula? She just wants to stay in my arms all night and a good chunk of the day with my nipple in her mouth.

Lol! No passing out! Yes I will try that with the dummy - seems like a good way/moment to get her take it for comfort. As for bedtime bottle, she won't take the bottle at all at the moment. That is yet something else I am trying to convince her of. Just getting husband to give her a bottle each day in the hope she gets used to it and eventually relents. Probably by then it will be about when I was hoping to give up bf anyway.....

Hopefully the dummy will work to comfort her in the cot. She doesn't really seem to accept any other sort of comfort, though I could almost hang over (so to speak) so I am nursing her where I want her to end up!
Thank you all so much for taking the time to share your thoughts and ideas. I only got 2.5 hours sleep last night - I have never lost that much sleep in three years with my eldest! Who'd of thought babies would be different!

I don't think you need to sleep train, you just need to change your bedtime routine. So I'd do pjs, milk downstairs, up to room then gro bag, cuddle sing a song - always the same one then bed, wide awake.

babies learn that you're going to be there when they can't see you between 4-6 months, this is why it isn't recommended to do Cio before then.

I don't see the harm in a bit of short interval controlled crying at 4 months. I'd put baby down wide awake then go in at 1,2 & then every 5 minutes. Listen to the cry and only go in if properly crying rather than moaning. When you go in, leave baby in their cot and only stay for a minute or so. I day 'it's okay now it's just time to go to sleep' rub their tummy or bum then leave.

Be consistent for all wakings and try to get 3/4 naps per day to avoid overtiredness

Do you feed her to sleep during the day as well? I wonder if you should stop feeding her to sleep at all because otherwise she's never going to learn to nod off without actively feeding.

I would carry on with the nursing still sleepy PUPU but not letting her fall asleep.

Sounds like you're in for a long haul!

She is far too young for CIO or CC and she's probably in the middle of the four month sleep regression. I would take the path of least resistance; co-sleep and feed lying down.

Either formula or ebm. I think f is meant to be harder to digest so will (in theory)help them sleep longer but the general idea is just one of a great big feed with minimal effort! We've started giving dd a bottle (formula) at night- she's only 9 weeks so much younger than your dd but we've had success with Mothercare Innosense bottles with carton (not the powder) f which is warm and given by daddy when she's tired but not exhausted- anything else is met with a firmly closed mouth!
I know what you mean about babies, ds would drink literally anything, boob, ebm, any formula, warm, cold...anythng!

I agree with booboos post

Cry it out would be wrong and unkind. I'm not sure why you are deciding already that it's 'got to stop' - the likelihood is that it's a blip and she is getting teeth through (which won't be apparent till they have pushed up through her gums) and needs extra comfort.

Denying her this is not going to help - also you will end up over the cot the whole time, which is going to break you if waking while co sleeping was too much.

I suggest, with the best will, that you persist in the co sleeping, or get hold of a second hand bedside cot, so you don't have to get upright to go to her - and just persevere with com or nearly co, sleeping, and feeding on demand.
She may do OK with a little baby food if you feel she is ready - to fill her tummy a bit - not sure how controversial that is now, or if it is even helpful. But it sounds crazy to go from co sleeping to using a cot.

Please, please don't do cry it out. It's just basically leaving them to it and can do untold damage, I believe, as at this age especially, they do not know you will come back and probably just assume you have gone. Some research states that the infant begins the process of grieving.

Sorry if I sound harsh, I'm not trying to and I know how difficult it is. But you seem to be cutting off your nose to spite your face! Make it as easy and quick for you as possible, ie baby close by so you can respond by just rolling over in bed and reaching out/feeding if necessary. It will pass - this is temporary.

Also the audience thing - no, it's not like she's attention seeking or showing off. Or trying to make your life harder.

Tiny babies don't have the consciousness to do this. She is crying because she thinks it will make you respond; she can see you, so she calls out louder to you instead of at a blank empty ceiling. She needs you and this is all she has - she can't communicate in any other way.

Just wanted to say that I always fed my DS to sleep, until he stopped doing it of his own accord. No big issue with it at all. At 4 months, I would go with whatever gets him (and you) back to sleep as quickly as possible. A bedside cot would be very helpful, as you don't really have to get out of bed.

Btw just checking - is your latch Ok? Are you sure she is getting a good amount?

Could she have oral thrush - IME this makes them very keen to feed and difficult to unlatch iyswim

do you think she might have wind, because sometimes when they seem to want to feed all the time, they are struggling to get rid of some air and need to be held upright and patted etc. Especially if they writhe around a lot.

Well last night better than a disastrous attempt the previous, when we didn't really have any POA and I guess were seeing what worked. I decided, ordinarily, two hours of crying (tired crying) was ok and would be worth trying again in the hope it improved, except that having done that and sleeping for two hours she was then crying for two hours. It was too much for us both and yesterday was awful. I think she is too young to really learn like that, and it would not work as efficiently as it's supposed to - also, I am not sure I have the heart for it. Don't get me wrong I am very much for it, just not for her at four months. It may well come in to play later on down the line knowing this child! Had to try it though to know it wasn't suitable I think! And hearing people's thoughts yesterday really cemented that!

Anyway, I basically did the Pantley method, which incorporated a lot of your ideas here. It was more along the lines of what I had been thinking and was similar to what I did with my first looking back. Of course I inadvertently did this from day 1 with her. I wonder if that's why she was so much easier or if she was just an easy baby.

Anyway, she went down OK, after couple of attempts. She was super tired though. Then she had a feed at half 11. Amazingly after half an hour feed and then pantley removal, she stayed down on first go! Until 4!!!!! ?? Next feed was fussy and there and back there and back, but got her down eventually at half 5. So, much improved from last night!

Who knows how tonight will go though!

Sounds like a success (I don't mind Pantley, she seems alright!)

Don't take this wrong but I am very glad that you don't have the heart to leave your 4mo to cry for two hours. If you did I'd be pretty concerned.

Instincts go both ways, and if something hurts you then it's probably best avoided...you sound like you are doing Ok though with this other method which is fantastic news.

That's great, it's really what I meant above you need to change her sleep association so she doesn't feed to sleep and absolutely do it in a very gentle manner. Even with PUPD you shouldn't let your baby be crying/distraught etc. the very essence is that they learn that you are always "there and being awake/semi-drowsy in their cot etc. is a safe place to be.

I also have a 4 and a half month old who I cosleep with.. He uses me for all-night comfort feeding and falls asleep on the breast for nap time as well. I have tried a mild versio of CC and PUPD and both methods seem only to agitate him further. He's either too young or a high needs baby who won't accept training. Instead, I'm sticking to Pantley pull off, and get my husband to rock him to sleep some nights (when DS will take it that is haha). My son also won't take the pacifier, which makes me a bit of a prisoner to him as nobody else can get him to stay asleep...

Pretty normal if you ask me

It's for such a short short time. They won't cling to your breast forever and it will ease off a lot in the coming months. Really it will. Babies just do this. You are being superb allowing them to feed on demand, it's so good for their little selves. You're fostering an enormous sense of security and of having their needs met. The more you can do that, the better able they will be to leave you as they get older.

I think so anyway. Lots of people think the same; all of mine have been fed on demand and co slept and it has always gone in phases of very frequent and then not so much, little sleep and loads of sleep.

They need us so very much at this age, it doesn't mean they are broken or we have done something wrong. It is simply a healthy, happy baby expressing his/her needs and having them met.

Training is not necessary, they aren't puppies and will learn all by themselves to settle, to sleep alone, and to function as separate human beings. All in good time.