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6mo, gradual retreat, not self settling....

22 replies

OpheliaMoo · 08/09/2015 20:05

Can anyone help?

DD 26w has always fed to sleep and so therefore cannot self settle. After 6months of this and very regular night wakings (and feedings) it's taking its toll a little so after speaking with the HV she advised one of two things

  1. Controlled crying
  2. Gradual retreat

I'm not sure I feel comfortable doing controlled crying at this stage but to be honest gradual retreat is just one massive cryfest in our house at the moment anyway so it's hard to see the difference except we're in the room with her

For example, put DD down for nap at 2pm, cue 40 mins of mostly crying despite me trying to soothe her/calm down. Eventually she fell asleep, I breathed a sigh of relief and slowly left the room. 20 mins later she's woken up. Go back in, she's turned onto her front trying to crawl across the mattress (she cannot yet crawl). Turned her back over, told her it was nap time, placed hand on her chest and spent the next christ knows how long trying to get her back to sleep with near constant crying so couldn't actually implement gradual retreat. She eventually fell asleep for about another 20 mins before waking up. By now best part of 3 hours had passed, she was getting hungry and if I'd tried to get her back to sleep it would have impacted on tonight's sleep (as in asleep for too long).

Moving on to tonight, put her down dozy, she nodded off with just a murmur (perhaps wasn't awake enough to self settle?) and 10 minutes later full on hysteria. She hasn't stopped crying yet.

I don't understand what to do.

What should I have done in the earlier nap scenario - when should've I called it a day? I couldn't spend hours trying to get her to sleep because it was just a nap and it took so long that it ran into next feed (I BF on demand but she's roughly every 3 hours) and would've massively impacted on tonight's sleep.

Re tonights sleep - should we pick her up to calm her down - does this defeat the object? She's not stopped crying yet so how do we calm her down if she won't be calmed?

We've told her it's bedtime, DH is currently trying to soothe her, we're not making eye contact and we're not communicating with her in any other way but I just don't see how this works..... and I can't wait until later tonight when she realises I'm not going to feed her back to sleep unnecessarily (HV suggested trying water as we don't think she's hungry, just looking for comfort and a habit).

Can anyone help, we haven't eaten dinner yet and I see this lasting a long time. Knowing what the hell we're doing would be helpful!

OP posts:
SolsburyHell · 08/09/2015 20:20

Honestly, I think you are hoping for too much. Try and do it much more gradually at this stage. Spend the next few days/weeks working on nap times. I've found music helps...has she a musical toy or cot mobile tune she likes. If so, can you play this whilst feeding her so she associates it with settling.

I think 6 months is early to do controlled crying, I did it with my first and it worked a treat but he was nearly 9 months and on 3 meals a day.

OpheliaMoo · 08/09/2015 20:29

I don't know what I'm hoping for, I'm just trying to follow all the endless advice.

If I don't do it at bedtime, what do I do when she wakes up and won't go back to sleep? Bring her downstairs into the moses basket because she won't settle on her own? Won't she realise that she can cry and we'll come to her? I'd love nothing more than to get her and comfort her but don't know what to do for the best.

Good idea on the music, I'll sort something for tomorrow although she does have a comforter with her.

I'm sitting here feeling like I want to cry because she's crying thinking there has to be something else I can do..... or to just do what we usually do and hope it resolves itself!

OP posts:
OpheliaMoo · 08/09/2015 20:31

Sorry my first sentence sounded rude and that's not what I meant, I just mean it's difficult to know what to do for the best.

OP posts:
pinksummer · 08/09/2015 20:42

I was in the same boat as you with my 6mth old (now 2yrs). We went to see Andrea Grace and it was fab. Yes, there is crying but I never left his side and I saw an improvement in days.
The basic idea was to stop BF to sleep.
Strict bedtime routing. Bath, BF then book (always the same book). He needed to be awake when I put him down.
On the next awakening (about 40mins later) I was to not BF at all (and won't till 6am). Just lots of the same soothing phrase, such as 'night night (baby's name), night night'. I probably said that 1,000 times the first week.
The longest he cried was about 40mins. This was repeated at each waking until 6am when the curtains were opened to signal morning. Taken downstairs and BF.
If you want to pick up and cuddle if they are distressed then go for it, it will just take a little longer 'to be cured', so to speak... I only picked up once as when I did he stopped crying instantly so I knew he was fine. He would just get a pat and the soothing phrase repeated over and over and over again. I still say it now he's 2 and he knows it means sleep.
Andrea Grace was the best ??250 I've ever spent. I love her.

pinksummer · 08/09/2015 20:45

Andrea also said to not worry about naps. Do what you can, rock, pram, whatever. Once you have the night mastered, day will come. It took a couple of weeks but she was right.
I have a 3mth old and I can see me getting in the same pickle but I'm not ready to let him cry it out just yet. At 6mths DS1 was a good healthy weight so I knew he wouldn't starve in the night. I just had to get him out of the habit

elpth · 08/09/2015 20:47

Have a look at the Infant Sleep Information Source www.isisonline.org.uk
I discovered it via MN and have found it invaluable in reminding me yes that's normal too and why babies act/respond as they do. It's information based on research studies by Durham University.
I fed DD age 2 1/2 to sleep til she was 18 months and she settles now very happily

OpheliaMoo · 08/09/2015 21:01

Thank you so much, that's really helpful to read especially since she's now 'asleep' but hiccup/crying as she worked herself up which makes me think she'll be awake again soon as she isn't truly settled.

Not worrying about naps at this stage makes sense in hindsight - it all feels overwhelming and whilst I'm sure she won't remember any of this in later life I feel awful!

I'll take a look at the website too.

She's waking, on average, three times a night and being fed to sleep - at 6 months old HV said she should only really be awakening once and that "the problem" is because I feed her to sleep

OP posts:
Burnet · 08/09/2015 21:06

To be honest I think a six month old baby waking up three times a night is perfectly normal and it'd be easiest to cosleep if you are finding it difficult. Just feed her to sleep for another six months, then think about changing things when she's got more comprehension.

Burnet · 08/09/2015 21:06

I think anyone recommending training a 26 week old is quite mad, personally.

OpheliaMoo · 08/09/2015 21:11

She was in a Chicco Next2me which she's grown out of to be honest as I have been EBF. I don't mind her being in a cot in her own room, I don't mind feeding her once but it's getting tiring with her frequency.

Maybe we're not ready for this yet (as in me and DH!).

So conflicted!

OP posts:
elpth · 08/09/2015 21:57

Sounds to me like your baby is completely normal (enjoy her!) and the "problem" is sadly with your HV's advice (ignore her!).
Can you fit the cot in your bedroom so the wake ups are less disruptive to your sleep?
But don't just take my word for anything, look at the research studies on ISIS online and their conclusions/recommendations.
No need to stress either you or your baby Smile

Pesto11 · 12/09/2015 20:09

pinksummer how did you do the bf and then story? My 8m dd falls asleep as she feeds ... Can't wake her to read a story?! Day/night always feeds and sleeps on me! Daytime - if i move she's awake . nighttime - I can put her down best to me and she will be up in EXACTLY 2 hours for 10min feed.
I think she eats plenty of solids and milk in the day... But who knows?!

Will NOT drink ebm from a bottle/beaker.now refusing water from said bottles and beaker so having to spoon feed water after meals.

Been co sleeping since 6m but sooo tired of waking up every 2hours.
Screams the place down if I don't pick her up in the night.

Help!
Surely she shouldn't be waking up every 2 hours for 10min feeds?

winchester1 · 12/09/2015 20:39

I sleep.trained mine at 5 months using cc I.k ow its totally against MN thinking but being in the room with her just makes her hysterical she need to be alone to settle. I got her into a loose routine and would put her down 20min before she was due a nap and leave her with a rattle and the radio on (she's a thumb sucker so doesn't need a dummy) and sometimes she cries a couple of min but generally she plays and goes to sleep.
Anyway the point of my ramble is that beng in the room may be making it harder for yours to settle. Shh shhh shhh from the hallway maybe better.

katienana · 13/09/2015 08:24

Just follow your instincts. Babies waking g in the night is totally normal. It can be really shit for you but it is normal! Personally I fed ds to sleep and didn't night wean till he was about 15 months old. Stopped his final bedtime feed at 18 months. Almost 3 now and he falls asleep with me holding his hand after a story.
Nothing is forever, just do what you need to do to get you through each stage.

Pinkandwhite · 13/09/2015 21:54

Katienana would you mind giving some more information about how you ultimately night weaned and stopped the bedtime feed? I have a 12 month old who feeds to sleep and wakes up for a night feed most nights.

Sorry to hijack your thread ophelia. I agree with other posters. I think you have to trust your instincts on this one. If you feel ready to do this then go for it and be consistent but if you don't feel ready then don't let a health visitor or anyone else make you feel you should do this. You know your baby and your family best.

katienana · 14/09/2015 08:46

I got dh to take ds for 3 nights. He got hardly any sleep while bouncing/rocking ds to sleep. I went on the spare room. When the 3 nights were over he would still look for boob but that gradually tailed off. For the feeding to sleep it was the last feed to go and again I got dh to take over getting him to sleep. He was able to rock him which I physically couldn't do. It seemed to break the cycle. After that I would lie next to ds on my bed cuddling g him. When we converted his cot to a bed we were able to put him down awake, do stories and get to a point were at now where he falls asleep quickly.
It required quite a bit of patience but ds temperament and my own feelings would not have got on with cc. I think it's quite harsh on bF babies, the associations need to be gently broken Imo.

OpheliaMoo · 15/09/2015 03:20

That's ok hijack away, we're still working out what to do! She's waking every three hours or so but if she sleeps with us she can go 6 hours! So it's just a comfort thing but a really tiring one ava we don't want to co-sleep.

At this stage CC just isn't an option we feel comfortable taking.

I am tired and sometimes I get fed up but we don't know what else to do. The HV made me feel like DD was doing something abnormal but I'm beginning to see that, that might not be the case!

OP posts:
OpheliaMoo · 15/09/2015 21:48

So another evening, and DD has been crying for the last 50 minutes on and off, pretty much on now after waking just 15 mins after we put her to bed.

Have no idea how to combat this. Just no idea and I'm tired

OP posts:
FATEdestiny · 15/09/2015 22:23

What about a cosleeping cot? Just remove one side off a normal cot (most are flat pack, so removing one side is easily done).

For your sanity it might be far easier to deal with if baby is next to you and within east reach.

To comfort baby to sleep, you can then lie next to her (but you on your bed, baby in the cot) eye to eye. You can lean over her and cuddle if needed.

I would seriously consider weaning onto a dummy for a fed to sleep baby. This allows for much easier independent sleeping.

I agree with those above who said the problem here is your HV making you worry too much. Just be kind to yourself and be kind to your baby.

Christobel51 · 25/09/2015 01:14

Hi, I feel your pain.... Sleep deprivation is awful.... A special kind of torture! As for your baby, I too wouldn't worry about day time naps yet... If she sleeps a bit then excellent, I would leave her to do that and not try and enforce further sleep during the day, especially not if it's taking such a long time, although I do believe if babies sleep well in the day, they sleep well at night. Does she sleep in a push chair or car seat? Would that help if you went for a walk at nap time?

As for the night, I know you are breast feeding but have you tried a large bottle feed at abut 10 pm? Just to fill your baby up to give her the best chance to sleep through for a few hours?

I agree with other posters about putting her down drowsy, soothing music or singing a particular song over and over, shushing and patting or back stroking.

How much real food is she getting? I think when they start to actually take in a decent amount of protein and carbs, such as porridge or mashed potato or similar, then that helps them sleep longer at night.

I do think that frequent night feeding is definitely a habit and often especially by 6 months is not necessary, it is just for comfort or routine and habits can be broken.

Have you tried a water feed from a bottle at night? They soon realise that it's not worth waking up if they aren't going to get the good stuff!

Also, plenty of posters will say, don't leave them to cry, it's cruel, etc, etc. BUT it is entirely up to you and your husband. Your baby will not remember when she is older and a well rested parent is crucial in your relationship with your baby. It also depends Upon the age of the baby. I wouldn't leave a tiny baby as crying is how they communicate but at 6 months, I would and have.

It is not easy to leave a crying baby..... All your instincts are telling you to go in and offer comfort, whether that is a cuddle or a breast feed. It is REALLY hard to leave them to cry..... It's awful.

Perhaps your could try some suggestions here and if you feel very uncomfortable with leaving them to cry, you could wait until she is a bit older, 8 or 9 months maybe and feeding well on solids and give it another go?

I have 3 children and they were all slightly different.
My oldest was a good eater of solid food so I offered water during the night from about 7 months old which worked quite quickly. She also had a dummy which helped her self settle. My second daughter was a less good eater so I waited a little longer, maybe 8 or 9 months but again, water in the night worked well. She wouldn't take a dummy and didn't really want to be cuddle or shushed, she just would stand u and start looking around so I avoided picked her up out of the cot at all and sometime just put a hand on her.

I am currently trying to break the cycle we have got into with my DS, 9 months who is still sleeping in our room as we are having building work done, who wakes during the night frequently and seems to require feeding each time. We have fallen into bad habits for various reasons but now need to tackle it. Tonight is the first night of water....he cried and screamed and wasn't going to settle, I went into his room ( he finally got moved out of our room last night) and picked him up and offered water which he took.. Occasionally he spat the bottle out and cried some more, thrashed around in my arms, took a bit more water, I shushed and patted , he took some more water, thrashed around a bit more, I sang songs and he was a bit calmer so I put him in his cot, he howled for a bit and all is now quiet. That all took about 30 minutes. I have no doubt he will wake up at about 3 am for more of the same!! It helps that my husband is away..... He can't take the crying and cracks and un does all my hard work!

I hope some or any of that helps. Just remember, this too shall pass. Keep us updated .

monkey2014 · 25/09/2015 10:26

I would also love to know what the people who just left them to it did - did you have to 'teach' not feeding to sleep or did it just eventually stop?

Sailywailey · 30/08/2020 21:38

Hello. I would so love to know the outcome
Of this for you Opheliamoo. Did she grow out of it?

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