I wrote this to help those who don't wish to use CC

[nannyme]

Thought some of you might find it helpful as it has received a good response so far.

www.btwiki.ebrey.net/index.php?title=Sleep_Training_-_Gradual_Retreat

Excuse the edit going awry at the end - I gave up trying to get the correct sessions to go bold!

Thanks blueshoes.

I am actually a believer in co-sleeping. I just don't get to talk about this much because people book me to get their children sleeping independently.

I co-slept for quite a long time with two of my children but used sleep training with the first at around 9 months, earlier with the second and around 4 months with my third.

Sleep training, as i say, is all about moulding behaviours to suit certain external conditions ans situations. So, a mother or father might want to sleep train because they have to send their baby to nursery when one of them goes back to work, because the mother is pregnant with baby no.2, becvause they are exhausted, etc.

Sleep training isn't an essential part of babyhood but it is very important for some.

I think if you consider the perspective from which I wrote the piece, i.e. to give general advice to those who were asking for another way beyond controlled crying, then you will see how strange it would be for me to use language such as "if your baby screams the house down and vomits everywhere, stop". I cannot cover individual situations and I also aim to give fraught parents some hope.

Thanks for the John Bowlby reference. I have a bit of a library as I don't just read what I agree with. I actually believe that the intense need to be responded to immediately lasts until about 6-8 weeks but that beyond this a baby exerts some amount of control over their cries and thus it will not always be necessary to rush in with cuddles at every cry. A lot of parents find attachment theory very difficult to cope with as the weeks go by and their baby matures and starts to control the environment more.

Too big a subject to debate here fully, but I understand and respect the theory.

Where are you at now with your daughter's sleep?

Away in a Meadow, the method you choose, if any, is very personal. Yes it could work for you but it is quite 'labour intensive' and does take longer than 2 minute checking/cc. That is all I can say without observation.

However, what I will mention is that I personally believe that teething and illness are very unsettling for babies and that they need reassurrance and security during and after a period like this.

Many parents will have an independently sleeping, self-settling baby who at once arrives in the parental bed, starts being fed or rocked to sleep as soon as teething begins with earnest or there is a bout of illness.

I feel that this is the last thing the child needs as it is yet another disruption when they are already feeling rotten. Imagine if someone started putting you in their bed when you felt like crap and you couldn't sleep well because of it, although the cuddles were nice! After a night or two you'd probably be wishing for a good night's sleep in your own bed with things just as they normally are!

You may not agree, but this is my view.

I suggest pain relief and the usual routine in this situation. Only time I'd change this is if they had a temperature and needed to be dealt with more proactively.

idont - totally agree - Im not even considering action until his teething has finished for a while. He'd on his 8th of teh set of 8 at the front, and Im hoping that when it comes, that will be it for a good while. Im just pondering what action to take when the time comes. tried CC with DD and it nearly broke me!

Meadow, I applaud your waiting until your ds has finished teething to sort out his sleep. He needs comfort when in pain. Calpol can only relieve the pain to a certain extent. He still wants his mummy.

nannyme/crusts, you wrote about parents taking a poorly child into their bed: "I feel that this is the last thing the child needs as it is yet another disruption when they are already feeling rotten. Imagine if someone started putting you in their bed when you felt like crap and you couldn't sleep well because of it, although the cuddles were nice! After a night or two you'd probably be wishing for a good night's sleep in your own bed with things just as they normally are!"

I wonder what is your basis for saying that babies need to sleep in their own bed to get a good nights' sleep. In fact, the reverse is true. Babies are designed to sleep lightly and have short sleep cycles, which is why a baby might have just closed their eyes 20 mins ago only to wake up again. This is a survival mechanism so that they wake frequently to ensure that their parent is nearby. Which is why most babies are comforted by the presence of a human being when they sleep. The insistence that a baby sleep through requires them to sleep deeply alone from a very young age, which is actually against their biology and some experts believe, contributes to cot death in Western society, a concept virtually unheard of in cultures that co-sleep as a matter of course. Some babies' sleep patterns simply take longer to mature - and I don't mean months, it could be a year or more.

You asked about my dd's sleep. We co-sleep. I nursed her to sleep until 18 months, then weaned her from the breast, whereupon she miraculously started sleeping through 11 hours. I then wheeled to sleep until she was 2.5 years! Now at 3.2, she falls asleep with either dh or I in bed with her after 5 mins and a bedtime story. She rarely wakes at night now, and if she does, settles quickly. And I can honestly say that sharing sleep with her is lovely and is a big part of our relationship. Our intention is that when our ds (3 months) is older (who also sleeps with me), they will share a bed together.

It is not for everyone, to say the least! But I am proud that dd sleeps so well now, no nightmares, terrors or wakings, just lots of cuddles

my baby sleeps better, longer and more soundly in his own cot. the times i bring him in with us since we stopped co-sleeping, he wakes often and is clearly unable to sleep soundly and happily for a long stretch.

not all babies are the same.

i think that nannyme/crusts has said that all along.

Nappies, I suspect we are violently agreeing. Yes, not all babies are the same. Your baby happened to have a mature sleep pattern from an early age. Mine did not.

But what is important is to understand the science behind how babies' develop. And not ascribe our adult perceptions of what is a proper way to get to sleep and stay asleep to very young babies.

blueshoes, you must remember that your view (which seems to follow attachment theory very strongly from what I am hearing) is just an opinion on what babies need. Attachment theory is like theory on evolution: hard to prove.

Also, just because other cultures do things a certain way does not mean it is the right way.

I may not be right and I understand that - it seems as though you have hit on a theory that makes sense to you and works for you. That's what we are all aiming for but we don't all need to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

I don't mean to patronise but I find your belief in your approach veers into a view that what you do is the singularly justifiable way.

nappiesgalore is right - I have not attempted to provide a prescription for all babies. I have my views but I recognise them as just that.

we are agreeing there.

my point was; you seemed to be surmising that the 'best' way for all babies to sleep is the way you found works/ed best for your children.

and as you yourself say, not all children are alike.

what i mean is, nannyme/crusts does not seem to presume she can speak in general terms about specific babies and accepts that there are cases where one broad 'technique' just wont work. i think its very helpful of her to put up an article which anyone can read and decide for themselves if it applies to them...

i think, though, that we are agreeing all the way, so not quite sure why im still typing...

x posts!

(apparently nannyme doesnt need me to speak for her!)

no, nappies hun, thank you!

I may have self belief but is always tough being challenged!

"blueshoes, you must remember that your view (which seems to follow attachment theory very strongly from what I am hearing) is just an opinion on what babies need. Attachment theory is like theory on evolution: hard to prove."

We can agree to disagree on this statement! The evidence is overwhelming on attachment. The question is the degree to which neglectful care will affect a baby ie Romanian orphanage v. short and sharp CC. But my intention is not to turn this thread into a discussion on CC.

And I am glad that you posted on GR because it will help some parents whose babies are developmentally ready to move on to the next stage.

Of course, mine is not the one right way, but I will say that generally, it is more childcentred.

Actually, nannyme/crusts, it was just my interest in the basis for your beliefs which prompted my post.

blueshoes - i think your way is absolutely lovely and you all sound very happy.

but for arguments sake - are you sure your way is totally child centred, and not what you think the child wants/needs?

fwiw, i have 3 v young, v different dc's and they each have diff sleep needs and i do love sleeping with one or more of them from time to time.(quite a lot of the time at the mo....)

the times i have allowed one of my children to cry for a short while, with them knowing i am there and that they are safe... i dont consider that to be 'neglectful care'.
it is usually a very over tired baby who just needs to sleep but is so tired theyve lost all reason... so they cry for 5 minutes and theyre off. i think im doing them a favour. it is done with the utmost love and respect.

as are the times i cuddle one of them to sleep. every child, day, situation has variables...

i co-slept with ds for 6 weeks. then i realised that I just wasn't getting good sleep as i was cramping myself into strange positions. we went into a cot in our room.

which was great until 12 weeks when i realised that he was waking us up and more to the point we were waking him up.

so i moved him into his own room

which was fine for a month or so.

at 5 months he would not sleep, he kept waking, and we were all (including him) going nuts.

I left him to cry one lunchtime nap (couldn't bear to in the night)

it was awful. really really awful. 50 mins of screaming.

and then it was over.

he seemed to realise having done it that he could fall asleep, wake up and i would be there.

now. i may have traumatised my baby (i doubt it and I have done extensive reading on this due to my job). but frankly having a half driven insane mother due to lack of sleep wasn't doing him any good. neither was him not sleeping.

babies need to sleep. so any way that gets you there.

that is what i think.

Hey, I am not a militant attachment parent. Babies will survive crying. 5 mins, 50 mins, I can't say where the line will be drawn, but I am sure if my dd cried for 1 hour and then next night it got better, I could live with that, hth.

sophable - what do you do?

I find this thread really interesting. With DS we never really did sleep training. We always stayed with him when he went to sleep, stroking back etc. At about 20 months we decided one day that this was taking up too much of the evening and decided, with trepidation, to embark on cc. However he actually put himself straight to sleep without any problems when we left the room and no need for any cc.

HOWEVER, during the many months of putting him to sleep, there was certainly quite a bit of crying. Adding up all the hours, I am sure that it was probably more than if we had decided to do sleep training earlier.

DD is going to have to share a room with DS (now 3) when she moves out of our room (probably at around 6 months) and I don't really want to be sitting in their room for another year putting her to sleep. My plan is to do something similar to what crusts suggests - staying with her while she goes to sleep, but not doing anything to 'put' her to sleep as I think in the long run this means more crying. I am always a bit confused by 'No cry sleep solutions', because a tired DS - in the car, in his buggy, or in his bed - cried.