I wrote this to help those who don't wish to use CC

[nannyme]

Thought some of you might find it helpful as it has received a good response so far.

www.btwiki.ebrey.net/index.php?title=Sleep_Training_-_Gradual_Retreat

Excuse the edit going awry at the end - I gave up trying to get the correct sessions to go bold!

Can't see it - says there is currently no text on the page.

gradual retreat

sections - Gawd!

nannyme..that is a really fab site..did you write it or set up the birth/ pregnancy part? never seen wiki before...

tell me more..

I had nothing to do with the wiki site - I just wrote the piece. I know of this wiki because it came about from a forum I use. I really need to get the help of my OH as he knows about script and all the stuff I need to convert my word doc into something readable on the wiki.

Anyone can add to it!

thank you nannyme.. great article , will be trying that one myself, just cant concentrate at the mo coz im so tired!!!

thank you nannyme, just printing it off now. having BIG probs settling ds at night at the mo!

That's very interesting nannyme. My dd2 is 13m. she goes to bed really well and we can walk straight out of the room, turn the light off and she settles herself to sleep. However, she wakes at least once every night (somtimes twice) and will only settle straight away with some milk (either remnants of her night time feed or a small new bottle). After giving her this there's not a peep, so dh is of the opinion she's genuinely hungry and we should just stick to this as it's quick and easy, but I don't want this to carry on forever. Cc has not worked as we have another dd who is 5 and it always disturbs her.

I'm interested in the GR method you've written about - which stage would you recommend we start with?

Moomin, I'd be inclined to say that whilst your dd is very reliant on that bottle, she probably isn't actually hungry for it iyswim.

I'd try stage 3 or 4 but you will be the best judge.

Blimey you were up late! (or incredibly early)

Thanks - yes I agree she's probably not actually hungry. I had full intentions of starting off with the GR last night but was so knackered when she woke up at 4 I just gave her the bottle. I need to be in the 'zone' and set my mind to it properly. But I have high hopes... will let you know.

yep, definitely start it when you have some stamina for it because it can take a little while and you may not get much sleep to begin with.

nannyme, this is awesome I wish I had seen it a few months ago! As it works out, I have done something similar. I still have ds (almost 10mth) on the bed with me beside him to get to sleep, and transfer him to his cot once he's asleep. He sometimes wakes, but usually goes back to sleep on his own. My next step was to get him to fall asleep in the cot. Your advice will be helpful for that!

Thanks!

Just wondered how you were gettin gon moomin

nannyme (I changed my name)

nannyme, I read: "If your baby or child protests as you move through the stages, remain firm and do not go back a stage"

What if baby won't even do stage 3 ie cries the minute she is put in the cot and is still crying 3 hours later. Hysterical. So she won't have a clue you are going through stages. How does this become different from CC?

If they cry right from stage 1 then yes the crying is a bit like cc. However, although I am an advocate of controlled crying where you check every 2 mins, make eye contact, etc. I understand that for many of those who detest cc it is the leaving to cry that is distressing for all concerned.

I hope that GR makes coping with any crying more acceptable. However, I personally believe that crying in itself is not necessarily a BAD thing. Other topic but it maybe explains my thinking a little.

If any form of crying around sleep is unacceptable then sleep training may not be the best thing for such a person and a totally child-centred approach is possibly better.

Sleep training is about the needs of the child in the context of the demands of his environment and the needs of his family. These inform our decisions on how to sleep train and indeed how to parent, imo.

I guess I got confused when I read the title as being for those who don't wish to use CC. In my dd's case, GR would still be equivalent to CC.

I am curious when you say you do not think crying in itself is not a bad thing. Even screaming for hours and hours, vomiting, night after night. From 6-8 weeks? Would you still advise GR in this instance, leaving aside what the parents' stance is?

Are you referring to self-induced/crying induced vomiting at age 6-8 weeks?

Not quite sure why I am detecting such a confrontational approach but the reason I say I am not of the view that crying is necessarily a bad thing is because crying is a form of expression like any other and I am suspicious of the often held view that all crying is to be prevented or avoided.

Does that make my opinions a little clearer? I am not the sort of sleep trainer to ram my views down others' throats. Rather I learn a little more with every new family I work with.

I am interested in what you hint at as being your personal experience. I don't think crying until a child vomits at 6 weeks is acceptable but then I would never have been in this situation as all sleep training I do is based on individual circumstances which take into account the situation at the time.

However, an older child who can vomit on demand, as it were, or who can work himself up to the point where he vomits would be dealt with, by me, using a loving but firmly consistent approach. Child vomits: all efforts to shape a behaviour stop? Not my style.

I personally believe that crying is in itself a BAD THING.

Especially in a tiny baby of just a few weeks old.

So, mp, what must life be like for a newborn who spends, on average, at least 2 hours of every day crying?

I am certainly not suggesting that a very young baby be left to cry incessantly and absolutely not until he or she is sick!

However, the principles of self settling can be introduced via GR at 6-8 weeks if this is successful for both baby and parent. If not, try again in a month or so, or not at all.

My DS (9 months) self settles for his naps and for his nighttime sleep very well. BUT, since he has been 6 months, he has had an incessant run of sickness and extreme teething, which started him waking a lot at night and therefore (because if exhastion) bringing him into our bed. Even in beside us he is waking irritated a lot atm which I still think is down to teething.

Do you think this method could be used at night for him? His cot is still in our room - would it be better to move him into another (his sisters)?

sorry - thats "another room"

Blueshoes,
Have you considered that your baby might be suffering from something, e.g. reflux, which causes the discomfort to cause crying and can also cause vomiting? Reflux babies don't like to be laid flat as it can increase the vomiting, so the cot should be tilted at one end (whole cot, not just mattress), also, keeping baby upright for at least 10 mins after feed can help.
This might not be it, but is something to consider and the Baby Whisperer books have helpful tips on this.

moomin, I offered dd just water when she woke at this stage.

My dad told me that they sometimes wake because there is something to wake for. By giving water, we found that dd 'decided' it wasn't worth waking for just water. Never had probs after 3 nights.

I have recommended it to 2 other friends, who both say it has worked for them.

nannyme/crusts, I agree that crying in a baby is a form of expression, but it is their only form of expression when they are uncomfortable, in distress. So whilst crying in itself is not bad, long periods of crying without being responded to is damaging to the emotional development of a child. Particularly that of a baby whose brain is being shaped in response to the sensitivity of his/her carer. There are numerous studies on how crucial the first years of a child are in their developing a sense of self, particularly the first 6 months. If you wish to read up more, there is John Bowlby and his attachment theories.

I don't believe that CC, even with going in periodically to reassure or PUPD, is necessarily any better for the baby. Babies need to be responded to in a manner which meets their needs from their perspective, not some arbitrary action which is meaningless to them. I only say this because my dd's crying would have made her so hysterical she would not have noticed what I was doing, whichever form of CC I chose to adopt.

I am not having a go at you and CC. I take heart that you are open to other parents' experiences. It is perfectly fine to suggest GR, or CC etc. because it could work quickly and relatively painlessly for some babies. But as a person who works with parents, I hope you will remember to caveat it that it may not work for all babies and if baby is violently opposed, to back off for a month, even up to a year or two.

My difficulty as a first time mum reading GWMNBN or Whisperer etc is that they are so prescriptive. I know your wiki does say "if the baby protests" or something to that effect, but that language can be rather coy. My baby did not just "protest", she screamed, as if for her life.

And there is nothing wrong with co-sleeping, which worked like a dream for dd and I. And which I am also using with ds. I would like to see the day that co-sleeping is mentioned as a sleep solution with equal billing as CC and its variations. If babies are expected to adapt, then so should parents.

.

Jinglebelle, thanks for your suggestion about reflux. I don't think it is. Because the unsettledness stopped when I gave dd what she wanted. Vomitting was only after she cried for prolonged periods. I even tried the Amby Baby hammock which tilts as you described. Dd was not impressed.

I know it is sometimes comforting to think that there is a medical reason for crying (because then if you solve the medical problem, it resolves the sleep issues). And I would always advise excluding medical reasons.

But some babies are just wired to need more help going to sleep for longer. What would have really helped me was if someone just came out and told me it is ok to meet dd's needs for longer. And some babies are just like that.