Tell me what I am doing wrong before I lose my mind

[ilovetosleep]

My DS2 is 1 next week. From 3 months old (until about 3 weeks ago) he was feeding to sleep at bedtime and then every 2 hours all night long.

About a month ago we started trying to put him down awake. But I was/am still doing the bed time feed so he was still going into his cot very drowsy. Initially he would sit up, grumble, protest etc and then would be asleep about 20 mins later with some shushing and patting. Amazing. Within a week he was waking only once or twice a night. A few times I tried getting him to stay in his cot and not get fed if he woke before say 4 am, it was pretty horrendous and lots of tears. (I say this because I am searching for a reason why he is seemingly traumatised now. Every other step of the way has been gentle and loving) Anyway now when he wakes (usually between 3-4am) I feed him for 3 mins, then he is up for the day around 6am. This is amazing.

The problem is, bedtimes are traumatic. I hate it. They were so successful at first and I thought we were onto a winner, I thought we would have gradual retreat down in a fortnight.

I have not retreated, one bit. He now takes an hour to get to sleep, with ridiculous fucking around and playing games. He is ridiculously overtired because of it. Routine goes: bath at 6pm with DS1. Story then Feed at 6.30pm. Into grobag and cot around 650pm. Usually he is almost asleep when I put him down, sometimes he's quite lively. Whatever his state, as soon as he enters his cot he perks up, stands up, starts singing, dancing and fighting for my attention. I hide on the floor next to him. He starts to beg, I put my hand in and pat the bed, he lies down. i take my hand out, he stands up. he sings and plays. I ignore. He cries. I lean in and lie him down. he starts chatting. I take my hand away, he stands up and cries. Eventually I get so pissed off I leave the room. He gets hysterical. I go back in, I shush, stroke, he lies down. I take my hand away, he stands up and cries. ETC. Eventually after half an hour he is completely wired and upset and confused and doesn't know what to do. Eventually after half an hour I am at my wits end and getting angry and storm out of the room in a huff. YOu get the picture.

In the end he goes to sleep with me shushing and stroking and patting once I have calmed down and neither of us has gained anything.

Can anyone tell me, how the fuck am I supposed to gradually retreat? I have been there for DS every single step of the way until now. I have fed on demand, I have suffered sleep depriviation to the extreme and still I have cuddled, stroked, shushed, and still he is distraught at the idea of rolling over and going to sleep.

I almost feel like going back to feeding to sleep and enduing the 2 hourly wakings, just so that I can have my relaxing evenings back - he used to be fast asleep by 7pm!

I think you need to get in a routine with the patting then retreat but not give in. At the moment he is acting up to get the patting so will continue to. So either you pat straight off or you back off and not give in. Does that make sense?

My DD same age will not go to sleep when I am in the room. I therefore leave and return very regularly if she cries. Mostly, she wails in protest at me leaving then goes to sleep in less than a minute.

Put him in cot. Leave room. He will cry and yell but he is doing that anyway right? Not to be cruel but what you are doing is clearly not calming him etc so you need to let him learn to settle himself. It is very hard to do but in 2/3 days time he will be fine. I would not suggest doing this unless you have already tried all the gentle methods, I learned with my DS that being in the room with him was actually keeping him awake!
I hate the idea of CIO but sometimes it is the only solution and as you say, he's exhausted and needs the sleep

You can still gradually retreat but once you have said you are sitting next to the cot you do not put your hands back in.

Temperament may determine if this works better than a shut door.

You need to decide and stick to plan as you are losing the battle of wills with a one year old

I think your own mindset is crucial here. You are wanting (hoping) he will go down but he just isn't. So.
Accept it will take time of an evening and get it straight in your head that you will have a week of long bedtimes.
Chiise your sleep training method, whatever it may be and unless it feels very wrong to you, don't change it for something else.
Do not back down. You are doing this for the long term, not the nice evening tonight. In a week's time (hopefully!) you'll have your evenings back and a baby who sleeps through. Your DS just needs to get used to the new normal.
Good luck

Thanks for the quick replies. SO, I know I need to find a plan and stick to it. I don't want to do CIO as I know him well enough to know he won't just lie down and go to sleep for a LONG time, so I do want to stick to the gradual retreat method.

So what next - do I literally just sit there and ignore him? Do I talk to him, try and calm him from nearby? Do I move a step further away each night? Do I accept that in the meantime I will have an over tired child on my hands? I really don't know what my method is. I can be determined and consistent, I will be, I just need a plan to put in place and I'm so lost I don't know what that is.

At the moment I do pat/stroke straight off, as soon as he goes in the cot, but by the time his head hits the matress he's not up for patting or shushing, he wants a party first. he doesn't get upset for the first 30 mins, he just wants to practise chatting and partying. despite being almost asleep in my arms seconds earlier.

So I need a plan

I would keep up the initial patting when he goes in the cot. Get him settled then sit in a chair facing away from him. Don't engage at all, unless he really does kick off. If so, return and do the patting thing but still, keep talking and eye contact to a minimum. Back in the chair when calm.
Move the chair towards the door a bit more each night til you're in the doorway, then beyond it etc.
IME the lack of engagement and eye contact is the most important factor. He needs to realise there's no point in staying awake.

I would comfort him (kiss, 'night night') but leave the room and go back sporadically to comfort with larger gaps between visits.

I could have written this! Am exactly in the same position with my dd. Except she has only slept through once. She alsp wakes once in night and comes into bed with us. The hv advised us to crack the bedtime bit first so I tried gradual retreat but like you I get v frustrated with how long it takes. She has a thing about holdingmy hand too.
I wanted to ask has anyone tried ewan the sheep with an older child, she is 18months.
Sorry to gatecrash your post. I will be trying the gradual retreat outlined above by confused. Good luck

neenie you are one step ahead of me, DS2 has never slept through! He turns one in a week and that is my aim, a full night before he is one! dS1 started sleeping through reliably at one year and a day so that's my bench mark!

I will also try the gradual retreat that confused laid out. I'm a bit worried about the crying but I will give it a good go. I suppose while I'm up there the desire to get downstairs is so great, and also I'm constantly aware that he really needs to be asleep for his own good and the longer he faffs the more over tired he becomes. But, only for a week (I hope!)

I guess the thing I am struggling with is the idea that a one year old is trying to play me. I don't believe this - he is genuinely upset, confused and unsettled by all this change. He wants to be asleep, but he doesn't understand why he can't sleep in my arms or why I won't pick him up. And why should he?

And yet, I need him to sleep well so badly, for my one sanity and the happiness of the whole family.

Oh and Ewan the sheep - we had one for DS1 and never really got anywhere with it. We do use a de tuned radio with Ds2 though and I have no idea how he would be without it during the night, but I do know that when I switch it on he knows it signals bedtime.

Hi ilovetosleep very interested in this as in a similar position myself! Also trying gradual retreat and seem to have hit similar wall with DD wanting to play and chat as soon as put in cot and taking an hour to actually be willing to lie down and sleep. Please update as to how you get on!

I don't think he is trying to play you. It's unconscious, learned behaviour. It's not deliberate but it may be more habitual than you think

He doesn't know you can manage till you teach him

Sorry, he doesn't know he can manage till you teach him. So that's distressing, he wants things the same as usual. It's up to you to teach him he can manage.

'I hide on the floor next to him' leapt out at me from your post.

Do not do this. Put him down in the cot, say night night and leave the room.

Wait. If after ten minutes he is still talking, that's OK. If after ten mins he's crying, go back in, replace dummy, stroke, soothe but only for 30 secs. Don't stimulate him.

You must be exhausted beyond belief. He must be, too. Imagine if you were trying to sleep and there was someone in the room on the floor, holding your hand... You wouldn't sleep, would you!?

Good luck, I know its hard.

I hope everyone had OK bedtimes last night.
I understand how hard the crying can be but, ultimately you are trying to get them to do something they don't want to do. So they will cry. The trick is to stay consistent with your sleep training method, whether it is gradual retreat or the more traditional 'controlled crying' outlined above by toffeeboffin. But don't be tempted to mix your methods. Stay consistent. If you do, the crying will stop sooo much sooner and your babies will get a decent night's sleep.
Controlled crying does work more quickly than gradual retreat. But you may not want to deal with the crying (I used it on my own DD and it worked so quickly I only had to endure a total of about 20 mins in one night. By the second night it was a few minutes and that was it. )

Can I just say that my DS2 is one in 12 days and we are pretty much in the same boat. He goes into cot at bedtime pretty relaxed but springs up straight away. Some times he is happy to toddle around the cot chatting so I leave until be cries but more recently he has been crying as soon as I leave. I sit in his room and leave him be if he is happy chatting and as soon as he cries I lay him down and tuck him in. Some times he stays laying down, other times he pops up again chatting. Any way, he gets to a point where he calms down and just lays still, I know I can leave him then. Sometimes he starts chatting again but drops off to sleep, sometimes he cries again so I go in and lay him down then come back out. Other times I have to hold his hand circa dew minutes before he calms down then he pushes it away himself when he is ready to sleep. All in all it can take any the from 20 minutes to 45 minutes but he is usually asleep by 7.30. Like you, I get sick of the rigmarole sometimes but I know it won't last and I know he will drop off to sleep by himself after he has finished messing about. I think it is normal, we don't go to bed and fall asleep instantly so neither can children. It would be strange to expect them to lie there quietly before dropping off. They are just doing their wind down routine! Some kids can do it on their own, others need their Mums. My eldest was like this until 20 months, at which point I just kissed him goodnight and walked out but he still used to lie their singing for up to an hour before falling asleep!

A quick word on your expectation about STTN by a year, my DS1 was a terrible sleeper but started STTN occasionally by the time he was 12 months. DS2 is also a terrible sleeper but is improving gradually. I too expected he would be STTN by a year like his older brother but I can see that isn't going to happen. They are different kids and have very different personalities. Don't rule your second by what your first did, they are their own individuals and will do things in their own different time.

Sorry about the essay!

Also, sorry about the typos! Even though he falls asleep by himself eventually, he still wakes up 3 times a night, more if teething. (The dreaded molars are just breaking through....)

I am in the same boat with my 13 month old. I am pregnant and getting very nervous about how the heck I am going to manage this situation with a likely cluster-feeding newborn in 10 weeks time.
Guess I have no advice, just to say I'm struggling too. DH gets her down for a nap fine, it's nighttime is the problem for us. It even has to be me to settle her, she refuses to settle for him if I am in the house.
We did notice this morning redness around a molar so poor thing will have been in pain which makes me feel more cautious about just saying "stuff it" and doing controlled crying like I have no doubt health visitor would recommend. I can't deal with the screaming from a baby who is lovely and happy in the daytime so for now, taking the easier option.....
I hate to say it but I can see this being a reason that my new baby may receive formula much earlier than DD as at least DH can do those feeds....

And I second what needsweets says about all babies being different - I think a lot of people expectations are high. Worth discussing with family what you and baby's father / sibs were like. DH is still not a great sleeper and my parents are pretty vague about details but both remember periods between 12-18 months when me and my brother were brought into their bed to maximise everyone's sleep.
I have pretty much stopped talking about sleep with friends as folk dish out advice, or tell you how much better their baby is - my DH is much better at pointing out positives, eg our DD is a good eater, very happy and funny (we're not competitive, it's just that folk seem to view sleep as a competitive thing) and that we are parenting her at bedtime as we feel best. These phases do pass (although last night I was sobbing "this phase has gone on for over 3 months!!).
Join us on the "Misery loves company" board if you wish!
Good luck, and keep posting if you try controlled crying as I am vaguely considering this still....

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if people have said the same.
I had similar situation with DS1 when he was 14mo. And I can see myself creating one for DS2 currently 5mo....I never learn..

I sat by his cot and ignored completely. If he got really upset I maybe comforted him a little with words through the cot and a quick pat. The aim is that he develops his own system of falling asleep that doesn't involve you. It may be that he develops a little routine where he stands and sings for a while then lies down and goes to sleep. It's annoying for you while you have to be in there listening with him but that's just temporary. Lots of kids happily sing/chat themselves to sleep so let him do it. Just ignore ignore ignore.
Search in here for a thread called "what worked for us"
I followed it and it worked very well.

The other thing is that sleep improvements aren't linear in my experinece. You may find that things improve, then plateau. Then get worse again. Then get better on their own. We've gone through periods of putting DS1 down in his cot awake, kissing good night, leaving and he falls asleep. We've then had periods of lying on his floor, holding hand, sitting in doorway, sitting in hall with feet showing in room.... In my experience it doesn't get better and then stay better.
What I mean is, just aim for "a bit better than now" and don't get disappointed with yourself or with him. If it doesn't work, try again tomorrow.
It's ok. You're doing great.