4m old waking at 3am- not hungry...

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I know this board is full of parents who have way worse sleep issues but I'm really stumped by this and need some advice.

DD is 17wks and has been sleeping through 9-8 with a dreamfeed at 11, an increasing proportion of nights since 10 weeks. She was doing it almost every night until last week when she suddenly started waking at 1.30-3am for no obvious reason, just wide awake and either squirming from skde to side or just "talking" to us. She's generally awake for 2-3 hours. As she's happy I just am at a loss at what to do. I don't believe she's hungry when she wakes, but usually after 2.5 hrs of talking and squirming she is, so I BF her and then she either slowly drops off again or has a second wind and is wide awake for another hour. Unfortunately she still wakes for the day at the same time.

She's in a bednest bedside cot. We've tried just shushing her, laying with a hand on her chest or tummy, bringing her into bed with us, going into the nursery with the lights on, or off, putting her lullaby nightlight on. DH has had a night with her and eventually came to me in desperation after 3.5 hrs as nothing would settle her. Anything we do seems to wake her up quicker but if we do nothing she still eventually fully wakes and then cries because she's bored. She does have a dummy at night but I'm unsure if this has anything to do with it as I am right there to put it back in for her. (This is the reason I haven't tried putting her in her own room).

The only nights she didn't do it were when we were away for a weekend with friends. I assume it was all the new things to see and hear but it's just not feasible to move to a farmhouse in Dorset!!!

It feels like the end of the world at night. I know about 4m sleep regression but assumed she's be waking hungry or unhappy if it was that? Tonight she's been awake since 3, ive just fed her in desperation and she's now lying there laughing and talking. Please help!

Night wakes at this age can usually be explained by bedtime. I would start putting her to bed earlier- sounds counterintuitive but I know it worked for myself and others x

Ok will try that. We usually start the bedtime routine at 6.30 but she has a long feed so it's almost 8 before she's in bed and then another half hour before she's asleep. Will try starting it all at 6 today.

In the end I stuffed her in the nursery at 6am and she slept for another 3 hrs nearly. I do wonder if we're waking her, but even after a night like this I missed seeing her cheery little face when I woke!

She may be getting big for her bednest. Some babies like to sleep crucifix style with arms out wide, or arms up above their head. If there isn't enough room to stretch out, this could be waking her.

More likely though this is the four month sleep regression. That your daughter needs more calories.

My DC4 (now 5 1/2 months) was sleeping 8pm-11pm-8am from 8 weeks old whilst exclusively breastfed. Then was sleeping 8pm-7am from 14 weeks.

But at 4 months she started waking for a 4am feed. It's a developmental spurt (she learnt a lot of things physical at the same time) and growth spurt. I spent some time doing an 11pm feed and 4am feed. Now she has dropped the 11pm feed but still wakes somewhere between 12-2am for a feed.

So to answer your question, don't wait to feed her when she wakes. The waiting and trying to get her back to sleep for ages and then finally 'giving in' to feed her - that time is waking her up. By all means take 5 or 10 minutes to see if she will resettle when she wakes. But if not feed her straight away, at least two breasts if possible, without giving her the time and opportunity to fully wake up. She should then settle back to sleep more easily.

Something else to consider is how well does she settle to sleep for other naps and at bedtime? Do you always feed to sleep? Use a dummy? If you don't have a trigger set up to trigger her to go to sleep, then she will find it more difficult to go to sleep after a night wake up.

Thanks FATE. She never feeds to sleep - well sometimes for five mins after but I never "count" that iyswim. She naps in a bouncer or out in pram/car, usually has two short (45min) and one long (2-3hrs) naps a day. Occasionally (once a week) I'll rock her to sleep in the day if she's really overtired. I am trying to encourage her to have her first nap in her cot in nursery but when I put her down 1.5 hrs after waking, awake but sleepy, she just will chat to herself for 45 mins and if I pick her up to rock her to try and help her drift off she is just wide awake as soon as she goes back in her cot. I think she probably is awake too long after her last nap before bed so I will try to address that. She only has a dummy at night.
She sleeps off centre in the bednest so both arms can be out but that's a good point - much longer and even that won't work.
So even if she seems happy when she wakes it may be hunger... HV today suggested little interaction at night (but don't let her cry), suggested not feeding her unless she's obviously hungry, as it may become a habit we want to break later, oh and maybe ditch the dummy if we're having bad nights anyway. I do think we could test her dependence on it a bit- I always pop it in as soon as it comes out and she might be ok without it.
Seems so many different things to try!

I'm a bit unsure about daytime sleep cues tbh. A comforter? I'm trying to introduce one at the mo for night time but don't know if I should use it for naps at home, or when we're out and about?. I don't want to increase dummy use into the day.
Thanks for all the advice.

Your HV is advocating no feeds in the night at 4 months?

..when breastfed?

Definitely "hmm" to that idea, your HV sounds rubbish.

I would advocate re-setting your expectations on night feeds.

Habit night time breastfeeds is more for a toddler, 12-18 months plus. Night breast feeds in a 4 month old are usually a necessity. I cannot for the life of me imagine what your HV is doing not suggesting BF on demand.

Everything else you are doing sounds great. I have always used a dummy as a sleep trigger. So it is only used for sleep time (never when up and awake) but is used for all sleeps - daytime and night time.

But the thing is that she's not really demanding food when she wakes... That's what is confusing me. Only after a couple of hours does she start to give what I recognise as feeding cues and then whinge. When I have tried to feed her pretty much immediately on waking (the first few times this happened), she's still wide awake after for at least an hour afterwards :-( HV advice was more "you know she can sleep through, so she probably doesn't need a feed automatically every Tim she wakes" Don't worry, I'd never not feed her if she seemed hungry.
I know I probably need to adjust my expectations of her sleeping, it's just so hard when she's awake and happy. If she was crying I'd have a whole list of things to try :-)

And now she won't nap either. Just crying in her bouncer for 20??and now in her cot. Won't even fall asleep on me. What a crappy day :'-(

Crying and being grumpy are the last signs of something wrong (hungry or tired). You don't have to wait for them to feed. If it's a long time since the last feed (like 3 hours plus) then even when awake and happy, baby will have an empty tummy.

It is common that good sleep promotes better sleep and rubbish sleep promotes worse sleep. Hence your rubbish day today.

Over tiredness from the night time can make it harder to get baby to sleep. I usually go with the swaddle, dummy, rock combo when over tiredness descends. But the longer term plan would be not to allow over tiredness to descend in the first place.

It also suprises me that your HV said "you know she can sleep through...". She surely knows that babies change constantly. Sleep in the newborn stage of the first 3 months is the easiest because basically babies mostly just feed and sleep. As long as feeding is good, sleep is easy. This is when you need to establish habits that last you through later, more difficult sleep months.

What your HV is right about is that you shouldn't default to immediately feeding at every wake up. It would be good practice to first see if baby can settle back to sleep. Maybe this is what she meant? I very much doubt what she meant was that because baby hasn't needed night feeds then she never will. because that is utter tosh and it's unfair on you to set yourself those expectations.

Thanks for all of that. You're right, I will just give her 5 or 10 mins and if she doesn't go back to sleep I'll feed her and then hope she settles a bit quicker. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day and I'll have the energy to push her all day in the pram so she can nap better.