Toddler trying it on. Mother tempted to give in!

[tigermoth]

Our younger son, 2.5 years, has never been a great sleeper, but we've lived with it OK. He has grown out of waking up at nights pretty much, and now sleeps through for 9 or 10 hours. So what's the problem?

Well, his sleep doesn't begin till 10.00 pm at night. He's always loved his bedtime routine, bath, milk, story etc and still asks for it round about 7.30-ish. Up until a month ago, he fell asleep like clockwork when he was put down in his bed.

Now all hell has broken loose. He refuses to stay in his bed, or any other bed, and wanders downstairs the minute he is left. Not just 10 times - we're talking 30 times or more. I cannot spend two hours wearing holes in our stair carpet, because I have 7 year old son to put to bed, read with, etc etc.

However, if my toddler is allowed to stay downstairs, he is angelic. He sits still, watches TV with us or plays quietly with a toy or two. He is really no trouble. The stress comes when we try to force him to stay in his bedroom.
If I allow him to set his own sleeping time - he tells us when he wants to go to bed - he gets under the covers and is asleep in 5 minutes. But this is past 10.00 pm!

Any comments - and yes, we have cut out the day naps.

I tried Ferber's routines for five months without success, from the time when ds was 8 months old. I got so fed up, I searched the book for an address, so I could write and tell him I had found a child it didn't work with !

Tigermoth, what is he eating for supper? If dd has sugary stuff she certainly gets a second wind afterwards that leads to her staying awake for much longer than usual. I always try to give her 'sleepy making' foods with lots of pasta or potatoes and she also has a hot drink of milk and honey (although honey is sugar it seems to calm her down). It usually does the trick, all those carbs send her off straight away!

Mashed potatoes, leeks (took some persuading) and fish in butter sauce, Enid. But I have to admit sugar does usually feature in his evening diet, so yes, good idea, I will watch it!

Will dig out my Ferber and report back. I roused him from his deep slumber at 8.00 am. Bedtime was well after 10.00 pm last night, so I am hoping for a tired little man this evening.

Those of you who are long-time Mumsnetters will know that Ferber was our saviour when ds was 15 months and we still hadn't had a single night's unbroken sleep. The chair outside the door is sort of a Ferber idea, just from the point of view that it is relentlessly consistent but not cruel or abandoning in its approach.
I am an utter whimp and couldn't cope with lots of crying at a stairgate and know that our ds gets hugely wound up and stressed if left, so me plonked outside the door worked well for us. He was stroppy and did lose his temper a number of times but I think eventually he just got fed up or worn out of climbing out of his bed time after time only to be instantly put back by me. It was dull and time consuming but only for 3 days.
I really like Ferber's approach, I think he takes a slightly more child friendly approach than Christopher Green.

Tigermoth, I am not quite sure whether you are joking about the pool of vomit. Is it an "in-joke" for CG enthusiasts? please tell me you are joking. I've decided to take my views on this issue elsewhere, for the moment as I suggested doing on the "bereavement and grief" theme. Hope to hear from you all on "my " thread, for all us "militant-attachment-parenting-holier-than-thou types"

The pool of vomit was no joke for for my baby, I can tell you. That, and the fact that the two times we locked the door did not result in sleep made me stop this pronto, Serena.

We have run through a huge range of sleep-inducing methods ranging from letting him come downstairs till he is tired, being cuddled to sleep, to the harsh method of a locked door. The fact that none of the above worked made me post here for advice.

So far, I am sticking with Well's advice about Ferber, and my own instincts (because I'm not going to follow his time charts) that the best way (painless to toddler and to me) to amend his sleep patten is to work on his day time routine.

If this fails, I'll be back

I'm also mulling over Bugsy's method and/or a stricter interpretation of other Ferber suggestions.

Serena, I know you may question why I have to get the toddler to bed at an earlier time if he is so unobtrusive. I do so myself.

But, as well as wanting some adult time alone with my husband, I have a 7 year old who also needs his share of undivided attention from me. We are also meant to do some quiet reading together each evening, plus other homework as and when. My oldest son has always been a good sleeper, but I am worried that if I let the toddler's bedtime escalate till late evening, my older son will refuse to go to bed earlier and will be tired for school.

Good luck Tigermoth, let us know how you get on. It is quite possible to be in favour of attachment parenting type principles and still want a few minutes' quiet time with your partner and/or other children. We have dealt with the same problem as you in a Ferberesque sort of way by having one parent upstairs, keeping the toddler quietly and boringly company in a darkened room until he drops off. But that solution does not suit everyone, especially people with other children like yourselves.
As I am sure you are aware, some children can vomit up a meal after a very short time of crying, especially if they are lying down (for some of the time, anyway!). As you have just done, I would take the message that my child was prone to vomitting in these circumstances very seriously and start looking for other solutions . But I can't believe your younger son has been permanently traumatised by this, not when he is clearly in such a happy and loving home.

You know, I'm so thrilled to have been possibly of some use! I know what you all mean about having time with an older child - I have a stepdaughter who loves the hour or two of 'grown up' time in the evening watching a film on video with us or playing a board game - stuff babies can't do, which is just one of the reasons we like to get the baby to bed around 7pm - that and having our own grown up time during the week. But I only put him down when he's tired,which means us getting up early which seems a smallish price to pay. Hope it gets better for you soon.

I'm a bit late to this thread but think I have actually read this CG book in question. It didn't leave much of an impression on me, I can't remember much about it.

I did go to my HV for advice when DS moved from his cot to a big bed at about two years old. He had always slept well in his cot and initially slept well in the bed until he realised he could get up and come through to the livingroom. My HV recommended calmly putting him to bed each time he got up, not saying anything except perhaps 'back to bed', not making any fuss. I remember starting this on a Friday night expecting to have it sorted before Monday. The Friday evening, and I am not lying here, I put him to bed at least 200 times, I had not even shut the door on him and he was getting up again behind me, I think he eventually fell asleep through exhaustion. It didn't get much better over the weekend and eventually I had one massive toddler style tantrum myself and I think the poor soul was terrified to come out again. The problems just continued and I tried more CG type techniques, holding the door shut whilst trying to reassure him I was there, just saying "Mummy's here now go back to bed", personally went off this idea as I am sure it just made him worse not being able to get out. In the end we just made his bedtime routine as nice as possible for him, lots of hugs and kisses, his favourite stories etc but then warned him that if he got up we would be annoyed then we just made sure that we were really stern with him if he got up after that. Looking back now I can see it was just a phase, the novelty of being able to get up again, and he did grow out of it. The Bartholomew bear story "Get into bed" did help it made DS laugh and I think helped him understand that it was not just him that had a bedtime.

I agree with what the others are saying about waking him in the morning (I am not usually a fan of waking sleeping children) it seems a logical way of getting him to go to bed earlier at night.

All the best and I am sure you will soon be looking back on this and laughing, hopefully at 8pm or so one night, both kids in bed and glass of wine in hand!

I discovered a really good book today in the library, it is called Practical Parenting by Glen Stenhouse, no doubt many of you probably use it but it's the first time I have heard of it and I was suitable impressed! Although he does advocate locking the bedroom door in extreme circumstances, which I don't think I would ever do but I guess if I were pushed .... But he also says that if your little 'un is getting up night after night to join you downstairs, you are to go into robot mode, speak as little as possible, and simply take your child back to bed. Do this as often as necessary until your child gets the message that there is nothing to be achieved by getting up.

Whilst Serena's idea of taking him into bed with you may sound all cosy and natural, some parents don't want to share their beds with a mass of elbows and knees and I know that when I have done it with dd on the odd occassion, I could never sleep as she always used to shove her teddy in my face! Glen Stenhouse says that if you don't want to lock their bedroom door, and they are coming into your room at night, put a sleeping bag on the floor next to your bed for them to sleep in. They then have the comfort of you near them, without disturbing your sleep. Plus they will soon reject the hard, uncomfy floor for the warmth and cosiness of their own bed.

I do advocate this book, it is full of sound advice and gives you all the choices instead of focusing on just one as many other books do. It does sound annoying Tigermoth but you have to be firm and consistent in setting some ground rules for your ds. Tell him it is unacceptable for him to get out of bed once you have put him in and then stick to it, letting him watch telly the once will only encourage him to try it on as mummy gave in before so he hopes she will give in again.

Hope this helps somewhat. I haven't got to that stage but I will be taking notes for when I do!

How's it been going, Tigermoth?

Does your wee man like listening to tapes at all?-I wondered if he might lie in bed listening to some favourite stories on cassette? I'm thinking of trying this with mine- their bedtime is getting v rowdy at the moment... but that's another story!

I very much endorse Marina's comments below, btw. I may be a hippyish type but I really believe that a loving home trumps practically all parenting styles and hiccups along the way!

thanks for all your comments - can't talk now, but will give you an update soon. Toddler went to sleep at 9.00 pm on Wed and 7.30 pm tonight !!!!, so things have been on the up.

However, I think this is due to the toddler being exhausted after a run of late nights and me getting him up in the morning, so I'm taking each day as it comes. I simply cannot predict what time the toddler will drop off at the moment. Hopefully a reasonable bed time hour will emerge in the fullness of time, but I'm expecting more bad nights in the near future.My husband has been helping lots, too, so I am not so exhausted and exhasperated by it all.

I will answer you in more detail later - you've raised some interesting points.

Demented - I could have written your post word for word. Tigermoth, I have to say, it all seems so long ago now though, it will pass.

In the end, I could only get my daughter to stay in bed by holding her hand - which I still have to do now. But she does "allow" me to go downstairs even if she is still awake but only after saying "One more minute" exactly twice.

Glad it's working. I bet if you keep getting him up early he'll keep going to bed earlier. Nice to think you might have cracked it without lots of crying etc. I hope I don't speak too soon but will have fingers crossed. When he does go to bed early, can I swap him for my baby so I can get some sleep too?

Hi, he's asleep on the sofa next to me, so I can't type for long - I want him awake in 30 mins. Thanks for all the comments. Having had one child, I have heard of lots of getting-children-to-sleep-strategies, but rarely used them on my oldest son. Sleeps like a log.

It really helps hearing how parents with more difficult sleepers have interpreted the strategies, and how successful each has been.

I'm glad some of you have found that a night or two of hell (300 goodnights, batters, ahhhhh!!)has changed things around. I havn't quite reached desperation point,so I will not try this right now. Even if dh helps (as he would) with my oldest son, I really want to avoid the angst for the toddler and for me. I want him to be so tired and relaxed after his bedtime routine that sleep is the natural progression. This is how it was for us over the last 2 years, so I feel we can get back to that somehow. We will continue to work on the days, and see this as a phase.

Rhubarb, thanks for your suggestions and the practical parenting book recommendation. I have to say, though, that reasoning tactics would work on my oldest son, but not my youngest. Perhaps in another year or so. As the moment, he is great at ignoring reasoning, and IMO, not quite ready for the rewards/threats approach. The sleeping bag by the bed idea that the author recommends - I'm sorry - my toddler would just step over it and climb into bed with us However, as you say, a general firmness about bed and sleep is needed.

Scummymummy, Hadn't thought of story tapes. Thanks for that. Toddler has just fallen off the sofa and woken himself up - no he hasn't, he's sat himself back on the cushions and is still sleeping - but not for much longer, I fear.

Tigermoth, just catching up with this thread. You asked if anyone had success with the ferber method of inching wake time/bedtime back by a few minutes over successive nights. I have no personal experience, but a friend who is a psycholgist did this with his toddlers to great effect and recommends the technique.
Hope it goes well.

I can't believe I missed you on this thread tigermoth, I've been going through similar (though without the spiderman tactics of your ds!) with dd just recently. Its been a real eye opener, I thought we had bedtime sorted over a year ago. I really didn't think it would come back to haunt me.

I've never read Ferber but I do think the whole 12 hour theory is totally realistic (thanks Wells) and I think that sadly the daytime naps are coming to an end with dd at 28 months ( ijust loved having that break in the day).

Serena, as much as I'm for attachment parenting (and I really am) I don't think that its too much to ask for a tiny bit of time in the evenings for oneself - especially if, like me, you have a 3000 word essay to write (hope I'm not being selfish by studying and wanting to better my, and my daughter's, lives). I'm personally convinced that the AP can work just as brilliantly within the contraints of modern everyday life if you modify it slightly to the needs of your child and your own life commitments...

Thanks for your messages Jasper and Lizzer.Last night was mixed: after an extra long bath and reading session,(one and a half hours), the toddler asked to go to sleep in our big bed. He wanted a cuddle too, so we both lay there for a while. Toddler was yawning,and oldest son was needing me downstairs, so I left toddler awake but well on the way to sleep.

Oldest son was looking rather hang dog at being on his own for so long. He had wanted to watch a favourite TV programme, so I'd let him stay up. However it was 8.30 by now and we needed to do some reading together. We began this, but the toddler repeatedly emerged from the bedroom. I ran upstairs five times or so to put him back down and firmly told him it was bedtime. No luck. The next time he did it, I told him he would go back to his own room if he got out of the big bed one more time. He did, so I put him in his bed in his own room - unlocked. He came out immediately - I put him back, twice. He hovered at the top of the stairs. I could hear some angry crying, but I really needed to spend time with my oldest, who was yawning, ready for bed and needed to finish his reading quickly. I ignored the cries from the stairs while we finished the reading - 10 minutes. I then went up the stairs and found the toddler had been sick all over the top step. He was angrily standing there. Luckily the sick was not over him. I gave him a cuddle and offered him a drink which he took. I then put him back in the big bed, since he'd had an upset, but gave him a firm warning not to get out otherwise he'd be in his own room. Oldest son and I sat downstairs for 10 minutes. I could hear the toddler crying still, but these were tired cries - I know his cries. This time, the toddler did not get out of the big bed. A first!! He fell into a deep sleep and I put oldest son to bed at 9.15 pm.

I felt like I ran through nearly all your suggestions in the one evening, minus the stairgate, which we don't have. Firmness and repitition did work up to a point - more than I imagined.

I'm hoping for a better evening than this next time. I woke toddler at 6.45 this morning, to give him plenty of time to get tired before bedtime tonight.

I have a dd called Aimée, she's 18 months. Aimée still has an evening breastfeed, and this has made it quite hard to get her to go to sleep on her own. We also bought a new house in November, and with things such as plastering jobs, etc..it meant we all had to share a room (in a 3 bedroom house! lol). This meant Aimée became quite accustomed to being in our room...and also of the fact that if she screamed loud enough she would get to come in our bed (husband has to be up for work at 4:30am). So, we took to getting her asleep in our bed..and then putting her in her cot...and do doubt doing the same thing half way through the night! Last month her bedroom was finally finished. We let Aimée feel part of the decorating process allowing her to have her own roller (paint free of course! lol) and paintbrush..and also letting her "help" during the laminate floor laying..which extended the process somewhat! We then put all her pictures, stickers...and every cuddly toy and doll she owns in there, which I add, takes up half the room (relatives do buy such useless items! lol..socks would be more helpful!). That night I took her in to her room, put her night light on, and her lullaby cd, and breastfed her. I then put her in her cot..and she laid down and I covered her up. I said night night and went out of the room. She didn't make a noise at first, but then started sobbing ( heartbreaking sound as all mums know!)but I laid her down again, and went back outside...about three times I did this, but after this I said "I'm just out here" as I stood outside her door. Two minutes later she was asleep. Everynight since we have done the same thing, although she doesn't cry. We are planning to put her in a bed before she is two, so that hopefully the excitement of being able to get out of bed wears off whilst she is still unable to get out her stairgate on the door....time will tell! lol

Tigermoth - how is it going ?
I have found that after 3 nights where my son fell asleep in front of the srairgate, he now opens the door but goes back into his bed. No crying or tantrum at all.
I find the stairgate very practical as he now opens his door (which we shut when he falls asleep) in the morning and gets some light in his room to play... without waking us up (well we hear him but he is playing)... So we won both times.

Well pupuce, we've got into a routine too, but I don't know if it's one that will stick. I have decided for now not to use the stairgate strategy, mainly because I am convinced my toddler would find a way over it, and if he didn't, he would get mega, mega angry, since he is so used to escaping from everything else.

So... I made a conscious decision to step back and let him be the guide to finding a new bedtime routine, and I just went along with it. I control his sleep patten by keeping him busy during the day, and severely limiting naps (thanks wells!).

After his bath and toothbrushing, he asks for a cuddle in the big bed. He doesn't want a book, even. I take him to our bed, lay down with him and cuddle him for a minute. He then asks for a drink, so he`has some very watered down milk (yes, I know you shouldn't do this after tooth-cleaning, but right now I don't care). I cuddle him some more, till he finishes his drink and settles down. As soon as he's stopped moving (under 5 mins), I say goodnight, he says goodnight, and I leave.

He then gets carried into his cot, asleep, later on. For the last week or so he's been sleeping through from 9.00 pm to at least 7.00 am. I'd rather he would drop off nearer 8.00 pm, but I'll take this adjustment very slowly. It's not helped by the ligher evenings! I also want to cut out the milk and may, perhaps, start putting him in his own bed again from the start. I'll see how the next few weeks go.

I have definitely noticed lots of other changes in my toddler - the way he talks, his general awareness etc, so I wonder if the upset in his sleep patten was part of a developmental leap, which toddlers have from time to time.

Tigermoth, good news about a routine that is working for you all and could lead "backwards" to even longer evenings for the rest of the family. I think you are so right about the sleep pattern being affected by other developmental issues - our ds is sleeping better now after an appalling post-chickenpox fortnight. His usual routine was disrupted and although he claimed to like the replacement (lying on the sofa with mummy drinking chocolate milk and watching Thomas videos for far too much of the day) in fact I think we were ALL glad to get back to nursery.
I hope your success continues.

Glad to hear things are improving, Tigermoth. I'm finding the light evenings a nightmare too, mine just won't believe me when I say it's getting late and the sun is still streaming in through the blinds!!