Earlier bedtime for 4mo - advice please!

[bookwerm18]

My 4mo's day now has a pretty reliable structure - half an hour nap in the morning, 2-3 hours over lunch (during which wild horses won't rouse him), half an hour in the afternoon, then FRUSTRATINGLY still a half an hour nap only after our bedtime routine (bath, massage, PJs, song, dim lit room, cot - all the usual things) at 7.30/8 ish. He's then WIDE AWAKE until 10 or 11pm, and it's driving me wild!
Nothing I'm doing is bringing his eventual actual bedtime earlier than this, and it's making both of us fractious for a few hours each night - him, because he wants to party rather than be rocked by me in a darkened room while he's wide awake and in a great mood, and me because I want my evenings back ... (and my DH b/c he thinks babies might magically do what we tell them, if we wish it out loud enough)
I'm trying not to let it wind me up because if I do nothing he is in a great mood and lovely company, however he should be asleep much sooner than he is - so my question is this - how do you make a wide awake baby sleepy?! Once he's eventually sleepy, we're all good and (with a little effort) he'll go off to sleep in his cot without too much dreadful protesting.
We are also going through a particularly wakeful nighttime period (every hour and a half...gah) but that's a whole 'nother story...and I think possibly why I'm at the end of some sort of tether with the evenings thing as I'm so tired myself now.
HELP!

Can you post what your day looks like with timings for naps? Just wondering what time he's having his 30min afternoon nap & how long he's awake before bed. It may be he's a bit overtired.

Another possibility is that he may be overstimulated by the rocking? We've found this to be the case with dd (13 weeks) - she was doing similar to your ds but was getting very angry the more we rocked & cajoled her. Yet if we popped her in her bouncer she'd sit happily for ages. Turns out we were overstimulating her & she is settling far quicker now she is laid drowsy in her cot in the dark & she is no longer waking back up once asleep.

A 2-3 hour stretch over lunchtime is a massive, massive stretch for such a young age. You say nothing would wake her at this time so she must be in a very deep sleep. This would suggest a very over-tired baby.

More frequent sleeps may be more restful for your baby just yet. Say 30 to 60 minutes 4 or 5 times a day. Up to 3 months my recommendation would be to start trying to get baby to sleep once she's been awake for 90 minutes. I realise your DD is a bit older than that, but not all that much.

My DD is nearly 5 months and as a comparison she sleeps for anywhere between 40-90 minutes at about 9am, 11am, 1pm, 4pm, 6pm - then bed at 8pm ish, sleeps until 7am with a feed at 11pm.

Oh, I meant to add...

There is nothing wrong with a large lunchtime nap in itself. In fact it is great that she has developed the lunchtime nap many months earlier than other babies.

But the large lunchtime nap shouldn't be to the detriment of frequent naps, which are more needed in the first 12 months. If you can keep the extended lunchtime nap and also add two or three extra, shorter naps to stop lengthy periods of time awake - this would be ideal. But I think the long nap is what is stopping the frequent naps.

More sleep promotes better sleep.

Mine is 3.5 months and can only stay awake for 90 mins when the sleepy cues start and I have to get him to nap - or else! He naps for only 45 mins but thats ok as its so frequent. I really think that 2/3 hr nap is messing you up a bit. I'd start changing his nappy after 45 mins/an hour. And maybe keep him stripped off until he's fully awake.

We encourage ours to go down by giving a feed very close to bedtime. So even if we've been out and about and timings have gotten a bit skewed and his last feed was say, 5.30, we'll still give a feed 15 mins before bedtime. He won't take much, maybe only an ounce, but his belly is full and he's much more inclined to drift off, and stay asleep for several hours.

I would try that, and also position myself next to the cot 30 mins after he goes down and at the very first signs of stirring I'd put my hands heavily on him. That sometimes does work. Also sometimes putting them on their side helps as they don't thrash themselves awake.

Speaking of which, is he flailing himself awake? Ours was terrible for that, but we got a Love to Dream swaddle which has been a lifesaver. He can suck on his fists through the material but can't make any sudden movements so he sleeps pretty deeply. I'm so reliant on it I'm going to buy the larger size. I was without it for one night and went back to GroBags and had the night from Hell. Little arms waving madly over the edge of the Moses basket all night long and nobody slept a wink.

Thanks for the advice - I think you're absolutely right about getting one or two more shorter naps in before bed. He's just a pretty awake kind of guy - and hates to miss out! I'm really not missing any cues - he doesn't yawn but at all until much later on in the evening... But maybe if I can get him to nap some more (which I've tried!) it will lead to a snoozier earlier evening...
FATEdestiny - VERY jealous/ impressed of your DD's nights!
omama - think you're right on the rocking/ overstimulation, that's definitely my feeling on it.
Annarose2014 - will look into that swaddle you mention. He's in a sleeping bag at the moment as he's kicks any blankets off.
Thank you for the advice ladies!