I have two choices, it seems - leave him to scream or forcefeed him during the day

[hunkermunker]

Please tell me there are other answers? I had two and a half hours of broken sleep last night.

hunker

it is sooo bloody hard
I daren;t search my threads to link for you as I will end up reading then and remembering how shit it was
the first step i took was getting him to settle himself to sleep in an evening at around 9 months ish with what, in retrospect, was a bizarre ritual
co slept for lots longer

but the biggest changes came about when we stopped co sleeping as it was just 'open buffet' all night
then he fed 3 times in the night on average.....

then i did some conscious action....but that is for later

sounds terrifying popsy

but lol at 'open buffet'

"Eat As Much As You Like!"

hunker, I think mears is right - either limp on like this (my ds was the same - at 20mo we're seeing light at end of tunnel) or finish up the night feeds, eg no milk between 11 and 6 or whatever.
FWIW ds didn't eat much at all until 10mo, really barely at all, when he suddenly started devouring large bowls of pasta, so ds2 might soon start being more interested in eating. Which makes it easier imo to cut out the night feeds - at least you know they've had a good munch by day...
Think I stopped night feeds (dh went in to settle him) at around 10mo, worked quite well til about 12mo when ds got gastroenteritis and I started feeding at night again (big mistake!) and sleep probs ongoing since then. You know it could take months/years (!) if you wait for ds2 to sort himself out. Wish i'd been a bit stricter earlier with ds as getting some sleep finally makes a world of difference...

Hunker - have you given him some Calpol which is a good way of telling if it is teeth (or at least pain) related wakefulness?

If nothing else it should wipe him out a bit and let you get a better night's sleep which it sounds like you badly need

Is he weaning yet? If so could you move solid feed a little later (or give a solid's snack just before bed time)? Something like rice pudding or porridge would probably see him through a bit longer?

Hope you crack it soon - it must be awful for you all

dd3 has a ready supply of food alll day. bananas, toast, raisins etc, as well as 3 meals a day and laods of breast feeds. and she still wakes at night. if you find a solution, please give me a shout. she just loves a schlubby breastfeed at night as well. i was dozing on the sofa the other morning with all 3 girls awake, next thing i know, she has lifted my top and helped herself.

hunker, ds was a bit like this, though not quite as bad. Tbh I found that the lack of sleep meant that I didn't know which way was up, and I relied heavily on dh to help me out. But I have had it easier too because the dds are so much older, so we were able to say to them, ignore ds when he cries, he is just learning to settle himself (I remember trying to get dd2 sorted when dd1 was still very little and it was really hard).

God, that was no help at all was it? But I really feel for you, it's so totally crap when you can't sleep.

I was thinking today, pondering whether tonight would be 'the night'.....

Although I was desperate for sleep from about 9 months to 18 months, I wasn't 'ready' and ds2 certainly wasn't. Some babies are more 'attached' than others (perhaps that is the wrong word) but ds2 definitely needed a very gradual 'retreat' to get to where he is now. he would vomit if I keft him to cry for even one minute at about 14 months.

Have you got any time that you can take off work and try ot get him to sleep in his cot? At first, we (pmsl at 'we', bloody I!!) did this for the first half of the night then brought him in when he woke at 1-2ish...

is that a possibilty?

oh and i found that no amount of food or breastfeeds in the day had any effect

its doesnt does it popsycal. i did the shovelling porriage down beofre last b/f at night and she would still wake.

no I agree that extra food doesn't make them sleep, but I do think it makes things easier (emotionally??) on the mum in that it makes hunger seem less likely to be cause of waking, and so easier to follow through with a ban on night milk. IME at least. I didn't feel so bad for not feeding ds as I could rationalise in my head - he's eaten xyz, so I really don't think he's hungry....
Ds also furiously batted away water when offered, another one for whom only squashy nork would do. Ohhh it's hellish! lovely but hellish.

Oh morningpaper sorry! the "So....?" was for hunker! Apologies!

TEll me to sod off if this isn't helpful and I know it's probably the last thing you'll feel like doing when sleep deprived but I find that having to get up to get ds1 off to school has helped me deal better with ds2 and particularly dd.

When I just had ds1 if he had a bad night but would sleep in the morning like you described ds2 doing this morning, I would sleep.

When I just had the ds's I would get ds1 fed, dressed etc and send him off to school (opposite our house so I didn't need to leave too) then have a lazy morning in our pj's

Now I have to get ds1 up and out and ds2 is up as well as he has to give ds1 his school bad, lunch box and school coat every single day(he's 2.5, I think my youngest are around the same age as yours?)

So even if I've had a terrible night with dd I stomp around upstairs until she's awake and carry on (as much as possible) with our usual daily routine even though I feel like staying unwashed and undressed lying on the floor sobbing "Why me??" I get us all dressed and make sure we're out of the house by 9.30. I take ds2 for a walk to the shops and a run through the park and dd usually goes to sleep in the pram.

We're back home by 10.30 and then I manhandle the pram a bit to wake her up, scrunch the raincover type things and then give her a feed straight away.

THen the ususal playing, washing, snacking (I find she loves sitting on the floor next to ds2 for a snack, she copies everything so try and use it to my advantage)

Lunchtime and feed

And then back in the pram for another walk about 1.30/2 o'clockish.

Home by 3 in time for ds2 and repeat the waking thing again with another feed.

Between 4.30 and 5.30 I'll keep offering her a feed but stop if she looks like she'll sleep, put her on the floor, pick her up and try again.

Teatime, bathtime, supper (i'm a big believer in supper) play and feed by which time she's usually knackered. Then I'll spend an hour feeding her and then she ususally goes off.

I'm not saying this would work for you but the controlling off her naps has definately helped me (at least I feel like I'm doing something about it)

And I make sure I have lots of snacks and drinks throughout the day to stop me flagging too much.

I totally empathasise with you, ds1 didn't sleep til he was 4 and he still doesn't need much sleep now, so I know how much it affects everything

If you are able to take up VVV offer I would! Or at least do the whole evening settling yourself and then let DH take over during the night.

When DP was going in to settle DS2 down I would put my head under the pillow and cry, I find crying babies cause my milk to let down and I'd feel like I was denying him something that he needed but then he would just stop and let DH rock him for a while and finally settle down. It wasn't the easiest week in the world but when he started to sleep for 12 hours it was all worth it and the change to our family's life was worth it to, living again not just head down and get through another day iyswim?

Anyway, chunnered on for long enough, I really hope you find a way of dealing with this that you are comfortable with and that works for your ds2

Hmmm - interesting about the extra food not helping - I did find that it helped, although my 2 were both pretty good sleepers - so it was probably only when they were in the growing phases that they would wake - which would probably have been more likely to be 'real' hunger IYSWIM!

In this business of non-sleeping though, I would rule nothing out until tried for at least a couple of weeks! If nothing else it will give you a feeling that you are at least trying to do something about it - rather than it all feeling terribly helpless

I'm afraid I am not at all keen on CC or any variant of it, no matter how kind, so I would have been completely stymied if mine hadn't been good sleepers - although possibly I would have cracked in the end and tried CC out of sheer tiredness

Can you find Aloha's excellent thread on when the sleep nanny came to stay - IIRC her dd was about the same age when she did that? Might be some useful stuff in there?

think as Tinker said, you need some help with this from your partners.

I know that no-one wants their baby to cry, but, if their baby is crying, and yet Dad, Nan or whoever is laying their, patting their back and shushing them or speakly softly to them - instead of you feeding them - then that is not so terrible, no?

You need to pick a day to start. Set up a "sleep" camp for whoever is going to do this for you. Put your baby down to sleep as normal, and set a target for when you wont b/feed between. For example with my DS - I knew he had gone one night from 8pm till 5.30am once so I knew it was possible for him to go that long without feeding. So, I decided I wouldnt b/feed him (he wouldnt take a bottle of ebm either) until after 5.30am, so inbetween that time it would be pat and shush. (No taking him out of cot either). When he first woke at about 11pm I went in and patted and shushed and layed him back down. After 45 mins he settled to sleep. He woke again half hour later, then half an hour after that, then half hour after that. He slept through from 2am to 6am that night.

The next night he woke once at about 12.30am I think - quickly settled back down to sleep, from being patted and then slept through till about 7.30am!!!! (Times might not be quite accurate - would probably have to trawl the archives but it was just the one waking on the 2nd night). From there on, that was it...has pretty much slept through. (Not including waking with teeth or temperatures).

He was never left on his own when upset, I was there. I think for you folks you need someone to do this for you that you trust. They wont be on their own - they WILL be being comforted, just not by being b/fed.

Have pasted this from another thread - otherwise i would have typed out the same advice 3 times in a night - maybe fireworks are upsetting some?

Ok Hunker, haven't read beyond much beyond since I poseted, but I now know now ds is 9 months.

He shouldn't need feeding in the night (unless ill) , it's a comfort thing and yuo are exhausting yourself by 'giving' into it. I have been there and done that with a bottle feeder. It's not you/breastfeeding he wants - it's anyone, but particularly you he wants to comfort him.

We went along with this with ds until he was over 2.

Try co-sleeping. It works for us anyway.

Sorry hunker my post sounded it a bit harsh.

I still think you to put yourself first for a while

Have read and digested all - thank you so much for the long posts. Will update tomorrow and respond more fully.

It's trickier because I'm back at work two days a week and he won't take EBM and barely eats when I'm not with him (although he's barely eaten all weekend - blinking teeth).

Night night and thanks again - you're clarifying my thoughts for me by posting advice, which is fab since my brain is made of cold spaghetti atm

and you wonder why you're tired......tsk!

Remind me not to get on the wrong side of VVV, she's very stern!

Hope you've had a good night and managed some sleep.

I was wondering if DS2 has a soft toy that he likes cwtching? My boys were never interested but dd very cwtchy and I always tuck her in with a giraffe. He's quite big and solid feeling and she always wraps her arm around him. Just a suggestion

It's so hard when you have to go to work when you haven't had any sleep, I really feel for you

He goes through phases with soft toys - he has a lion he seems to like, but can throw it surprisingly far if I suggest he might like it... He has a muslin he cuddles and rubs on his face - he's always liked doing this, since he was born (he used to have one under his head to catch possetty bits and would always reach back to grab it to bring it with him when I picked him up).

Last night...he woke at 12.30am, 2am and 3.30am. I figured I'd feed him because it was likely to be the quickest way to get him back to sleep - and it worked this time. I did this because I had to come to work today. He did go back to sleep fairly quickly each time and he did take a good feed each time. He then slept till 6.50 and had another good feed then.

If I pick him up before he's properly awake and feed him, he goes straight back to sleep. If I leave him till he's properly awake, he stays awake for hours and won't feed.

I shall use this thread as a sleep diary for him and people can come and berate me for not being strict enough or hug me empathetically

However, he did shower DH with big, open-mouthed kisses when he picked him up this morning. I think he knows that if he stops being sweet, he'll be on eBay... (Or SuzyWong liked him when she met him - perhaps I could post him to Australia? Hmmmmmmmmmm...).

Thanks all. [sleepy ]

(Oh, and I love the word cwtch. Explains it perfectly).

Hunker - sounds like a slightly easier night. Are you working again tomorrow?

No, but I am on Thursday.

(((hugs))) hunker, not gonna go on about how he doens't need the food/comfort etc really wound me up when a mum tried doing that to me at tots - anyhow, joey went thru from 7 months (althou the last week he's been a real nightmare) few things i've figured out -

1. he cried out in his sleep anyways and stays asleep so where as I used to go rushin in and pick up/feed now I don't I stay in bed 1/2 asleep and if he really wants me he'll cry out properly then I go in etc.
2. swaddaling - don't ask me nap times = swaddaling big sleeps = no swaddaling he jsut won't settle himself when his arms come free.
3. he wakes after 45 mins of being put down with the boob so I give him formula normally a bout 4 oz only but he goes back off and then we don't hear from him - only been doing this again thou since his teeth have been coming thru and he's eating less.
4. otherwise lift him out sit in the chair complete darkness and have a nice cuddles i'm such a mean mummy as well get him ready for the boob position and put his dummy in so he's thinking it's boob! so mean - still if he's really after the boob he spits out the dummy but i'm not convinced he wants it. erm 5) teeth gel stuff might help if u use it.

oor also certain foods seem to really agrivate him - don't ask me how it works out but weetabix and anything potatoe based he can't eat during the day cos he'll wake up at 4am literally screaming like a mad man. and finally! when does he nap? - i'm sure half the reason besides the teething thing is the boy was after dropping a nap during the day - he did yesterday and was fine last night, (afaik - DH was up thou) I think only 1 45 min nap isn't enough by day but if he's sleeping by night I don't mind so much.

(((hugs))) for both u and flame bat

hope some of this is useful anyhow.