4yr old won't sleep but plays quietly in his room for 4-5 hours!

[IondonIady]

My 4 yr old DS has problems falling asleep at night. Once he is asleep he is fine and will sleep right through. It's almost like he doesn't know how to 'switch off'. Once he has switched off he is fine.

We have followed a bedtime routine for the past 2yrs: 6.30pm dinner, 6.45 teeth/ shower (he prefers showers to baths), 7pm bed, stories and cuddles til 7.30pm then lights out and he's left alone. This has always worked really well. He knows his routine. He used to go to sleep really well and quickly.

Over past year he has gradually started staying up playing in his room rather than going to sleep. He is really into imaginative stories and role playing anything from Postman Pat to Fireman Sam.
It used to be only once a week that he would play for any length of time but over the past year its become every night and now he regularly (6 nights a week) will stay up till 11pm.
He doesn't bother us or ask for us to stay with him. He might call us if he needs the toilet but he will go and then straight back to his room.
I have taken all toys out of his room (he doesn't need toys to play as he has very active imagination). He has a teddy that he cuddles at night and I couldn't take that away (don't think it would make any difference to the sleeping/ playing).
He wakes at more or less the same time each morning (8am). I take him swimming, bike riding, anything to wear him out but it doesn't really make a difference (I am keeping a diary for the paediatrician who we have been referred to and are waiting for an apt with). GP mentioned Melatonin maybe prescribed by paed which in principle I would happily use if it was prescribed (subject to researching all the side effects).

He hasn't napped during the day for about 2 years. Nursery don't report any issues with him being tired. Sometimes he has outbursts and anger issues which I suspect maybe due to lack of sleep. He generally doesn't appear tired during the day (no eye rubbing, full of energy, never says he's tired).
No unusual things have happened (not starting school til Sept 15). He's been at his nursery since 9months. No change of house, care pattern etc.

I'm reluctant to be too hard with him because I can empathise with him. I find it really difficult to go to sleep and as much as I try might take me hours to drop off. I genuinely don't think he has a choice so can't see how reward charts/ treats / sanctions will help.
I have tried lying with him (just left him after a 2 hour lie down/ cuddle) but after looking a bit tired he is now bounding about playing being buzz lightyear (with no toys).

I have spoken to a lot of people in my network about this and have found no one with same problem. Would love to hear experiences and if any one else has any wise words! I had a look at the talk boards and couldn't find anything similar (sorry if I have missed a thread- please do direct me to chats that cover this topic if they are out there).

Bit worried that it will become a habit and if left too long unchecked may be a difficult pattern to break.

Am I right to be worried? Is it a phase? Should I ignore it as he's not doing himself or anyone else any harm (DH & I are getting our evenings and enough sleep unlike some of my sleep-deprived mummy friends!)?

TIA

Our children don't sleep early. My 4 year old was forced to go, and that's at 9.30pm. My 6 year old now goes about 9pm. They stopped napping at about 18 months old/2 years old, they both went to nursery full time since 6 months old.

I'd say they'll soon grow out of it. My older one used to go to bed really late and it was through sheer force that he's adapted. He's just gone to bed and it's 10. We tried readjusting their clocks through long distance flights (more out of circumstance!!) and it didn't make a jot of difference.

We accept it. We know our kids don't sleep early. It means that we can go out later and not have to deal with tantruming kids. It does however mean that we don't really get any grown up time as by the time they go down, I'm knackered and in bed myself.

Not helping much I don't think, but much empathy.

Thank you for your reply NK5BM3. Glad I'm not the only one with wide-awake kids!

When you say sheer force- what do you mean? How did you get the 6 yr old to adapt to earlier bedtime? Share the secret!
I don't want to make bedtime something he (and I) dread by turning it to a shouting match and a negative time as at the moment DS is really happy to go to bed- just not sleep!

Hope you get some well-earned sleep! Seems you're really chilled about it and maybe I should be! Thanks again.

With the older one, it was age and maturity I think. We reasoned that if he didn't go down, then he couldn't do fun stuff the next day. This was when he was able to reason and accept reason.

I think if he's not bothering you, and happy in his own games, then leave him to it. He just doesn't need the sleep as much. Alternatively, you could try and wake him up earlier (your son wakes at 8 now?). Does this time suit school in September? If not, you could try waking him earlier. This might mean he will be tired earlier..

My son's schedule is something like 7.30am wake up, then to school. He's in after school club till 6. We eat at about 6.30. Bath about 7.30. Then bedtime routine of reading, teeth etc. earliest they would go into bed is about 8.30. That's being v optimistic. 9 is more realistic.

He did try to go to bed and sleep. We gave him a few minutes to do that (and when he couldn't, it was fine... ) but we wanted him to try and go to sleep (as opposed to read, chat, play). He now goes pretty much within 5 min.

Some kids really just don't need so much sleep. I have friends whose children are similar age, and the younger one for the longest time was going to bed at 6. Older one at 7. She was however a sahm and so could organise for dinner to be ready by 4.30! I don't even leave the office till 5.30 earliest. So by the time we get in, it's 6 at the very earliest.

I don't think that even if I was a sahm, that my kids would sleep early. On weekends when I can get dinner going earlier, we just end up with more cuddle/fun time and bed still at 9!

We have a similar problem. My 4 year old will play for hours in his room but in the morning. He goes to sleep at 7:15 just fine but wakes at 5 and will not sleep later.

This wasn't too bad when he was at preschool but he started school last September and it's starting to cause problems. He can't now have the occasional nap after swimming in the morning, or the occasional lie in when he needs it and he is utterly exhausted. He still won't sleep though. He's having problems at school due to behaviour now and it's sheer tiredness.

So I would say it depends for your son. If he's not remotely tired, never needs a nap or lie in then he may be ok and just not need as much sleep. On the other hand if he does need more sleep it would be easier to sort it out now rather than when the inflexible routine of school arrives.

As to how, that's a whole other question. We are working with the school at the moment so that he has to go back to sleep in the mornings, and if he's late for school this week that's ok. That seems to be finally working. He has said he really struggles to get back to sleep so we're trying to help him with ways of settling to sleep even when not tired. It's not easy but maybe that's something your son would benefit from.

Thank you TheSkiingGardener. Really helpful!

I do think the school routine might cause some problems. I can imagine he may be quite a bit more tired at school vs nursery and if he's not getting enough sleep it may cause some problems.

Hopefully the paediatrician will have the answer with the magic melatonin!

DS has just 5 mins ago gone to sleep so I can now too!
Good night everybody!

If you think the school routine will bring issues, then perhaps best to get going earlier. So if he needs to be awake for 7 so that he is out of the house by 8 then start waking him up at 7. Or even 7.30 to start with. Tell him that it's because he's a big boy and going to big school and hype it up a bit.

Good luck!!

Thing is many kids would rather play than sleep. I would set a more realistic bedtime (8:30)and have a reward scheme and a big chat about going to bed and trying. I think kids need to learn good sleep hygiene. If he benefits from quiet plAy to wind down do it before cuddles and bed

My 6 year goes to bed at 8pm but doesn't go to sleep until 10pm at the earliest. She doesn't get tired during the day so we pretty much leave her to it now! She chats to her toy dog or reads. My only worry is that she'll have sleep problems in the future but I don't know what else we can do about it, you can't force someone to fall asleep!

I am having exactly the same problem with dd2 who is 7 and dd3 who is 4. Both are awful to get to sleep and its gone 11 till both settle.

The 4 year old is super clingy and is up and downstairs all evening pissing about.
I've tried laying with her but still takes hours and now she is waking in the night and coming in my bed.

She too will play but only for short bursts and wants to be with us all the time. Its been like this since she was 2

Dd never naps, is on the go all the time, hyper and I'm at my wits end

I'm having similar issues with DS aged 6. He's going to bed without an issue as such at around 7:30pm and is absolutely shattered, but is playing around in his room until around 11pm - midnight (doesn't always get out of bed). He then seems to drop off and wakes about 5am ish for the toilet and refuses to go back to sleep playing around in his room again. Its only the noise of him playing that disturbs our sleep (& sometimes that of his sister), he doesn't actually bother us. The concern I have is that he is permanently tired and his behaviour gets really bad (he even gets weepy at the slightest thing as he's so tired) because he won't sleep. I've tried charts, camomile tea, oats porridge type things before bed, white noise/music and even said he will be made to stay in bed in the morning for as long as he plays about and reminding him of the fun he will be missing by doing this. None of this has any effect at all, apart from causing a morning tantrum. Tried to do his holiday homework and he can't even manage to concentrate on that or do things that used to come easy to him, so it must be affecting his school work too. He isn't even managing to play in the same room as his sister without whinging at her then throwing a strop - he seems so tired yet just won't sleep.

Did anybody get anywhere with further ideas for sleep?