When to start a sleep routine? And how?

[KitKat1985]

DD is 4 weeks old tomorrow. She definitely has a reverse day / night pattern still. Yesterday for example she slept most of the day (only really waking for feeds) and then at night she was awake from about 10pm-12.30 and then slept until 3.30am. From therein she woke up and was awake until 7.45am - so in excess of four hours (cluster feeding for a couple of hours and then a couple of hours crying and refusing to sleep in her moses basket as she wanted cuddles / to sleep in my arms). Me and DH are exhausted and are taking the nights in 'shifts', so he has been up feeding her etc, (with expressed breast milk) for the first few hours of the night, and then I do the rest of the night shift. After next week however DH is back at work full time (currently he is taking annual leave) and needs to be at 6.30am, so not sure how much longer he is going to be able to help me with this. I'm told she is too young at the moment to have any real kind of sleep routine and we have to just 'go with the flow' at this age, but when can we start a sleep routine? And how on earth do we go about doing it? At the moment DD is in the lounge with DH the first few hours of the night (which because we don't have dimmer bulbs is therefore in full light) whilst I get some sleep, and then when she goes to sleep he takes her into our room and when she wakes up I take her into her nursery to settles her so as DH can get some sleep. So yes, when can we start a sleep routine and how do we go about it? She is currently being breastfed on demand if that's of any relevance. xxx

There was a thread about this recently in AIBU and I seemed to be a bit different to other posters in that most didn't do sleep routines until much later, whereas I've done them with both of mine from day one and have never had a problem with reverse cycling, although I do entirely acknowledge that that could be good luck and not good management. My first was a very, very frequent waker, so don't assume it will lead to blissful full nights, but he had definite night sleeping patterns where he was much easier to get back to sleep at night than in the day just didn't bloody stay that way from early on and he didn't often stay awake for long periods at night. My second, currently, nine weeks old, has had distinct appropriate night sleep versus daytime sleep since he was a couple of weeks old. Just in case it is my utterly exceptional parenting that has influenced this here is what I did/do with both,but more so with DS2:

1. 7pm bath, preceded by as much feeding of DS2 as I can or that he asks for if he's in a cluster-feeding mood (I'm EBF as well)
2. Pyjamas, into our bedroom where he has a co-sleeper cot, swaddled, white noise on, lights off - I keep the light on my phone on so I can see that he's not falling asleep on the boob, but I keep it well out of the way and out of his eyes.
3. When he's had enough of a feed and/or is looking very sleepy, he goes into his cot, phone light goes off.
4. He goes to sleep with me lying in the bed so he can see and smell me. I'm gradually moving over the side of the bed away from him so that he gets more and more used to falling asleep without me nearby.
5. All night wakings are done in complete darkness. I wake up as soon as he starts wriggling around and smacking his mouth for a feed. I take him out of the cot and re-do his swaddle. Sometimes this is actually enough to put him back to sleep as he just wants to be nice and tightly wrapped again. Otherwise, it wakes him up a little more fully so he'll take a full feed, then back in the cot. The white noise runs continuously all night.

Getting to step 4 above took a little work in that I progressed him from full co-sleeping to his cot over the course of about four weeks, and it was about this same length of time that it took him to do a full night in his own cot (with wakings for feeds, obvs). Sometimes I would have to take him into the spare bedroom for a step back to (safe) co-sleeping but using some techniques from No Cry Sleep Solution (holding him in his cot until he fell asleep, picking him up for a cuddle at the slightest grizzle if he went in his cot, putting him down in side lying initially then gradually rolling him onto his back once asleep).

Main rule is once they're in the bedroom for the night, keep the lights out, and do not take them into another room once they're in there, especially not another room with lights/TV on.

During the day, get her out in the sun as much as possible, and feed her as much as you possibly can, so that daytime is about light and food, while night is dark and sleep. Also try to make sure that she's not awake longer than 45-60 minutes between naps during the day, or she'll get into over-tired zone which will, ironically make her stay awake longer, and make it more difficult for her to get to, and stay, asleep.

About to post this essay now. Here's where I find out 15 other people have posted in the meantime making all my advice look like a load of bollocks

It might help if she stays in one place from the time you put her down and make sure that room is dark etc and different from the daytime environment? DS1 is 7 wks and we bought a Sleepyhead when he was 3 days old which I have to say, has been a Godsend and worth the money. The first night in it he slept 4 hrs from 8pm to 12pm and has kept that routine since. He sleeps in that in his co-sleeper in our room and during the day he sleeps in his bouncer in the living room although I do sometimes put him in our room for his lunchtime nap.

We've followed a bit of a routine since he was about 3 wks old although we do struggle to get his feeds timed exactly so sometimes he isn't hungry for his night time feed which should be around 7.30 and he's asleep by 8pm. He sleeps 4/5 hrs, feed, then another 3/4 hours, feed, then awake at 7am.

During the day he's got himself into a bit of a routine tbh, naps at 9.30 and 12.30 and then the afternoons we normally do something so he'll nap when he feels like it in his pram/sling my arms etc but mainly he's in the living room and kitchen in the daylight and in his chair so it's a different environment for him.

Also, have you tried a dummy? We didn't want to initially but I found I was comfort feeding DS1 a lot in the first few weeks and now it settles him brilliantly. As soon as I notice he's tired during the day, his chair goes back and his dummy goes in and he's asleep within 10 mins. At night we use it to get him to drop off. Once he's asleep, it drops out of his mouth and that's him for the night.

Most babies don't sleep well until 12-16 weeks and most don't sleep through until at least 1.

During the day let her sleep in day light and at night keep it dim.

Please don't consider sleep training your tiny baby. Either nap or drink more coffee.

We started a routine at 6 weeks - bath at 7, bottle at 7.15 and bed at 7.30. Ds responded very well and seemed relaxed and comforted by knowing what was coming. From then on gradually slept for longer stretches until by 5 months he dropped night feeds himself and slept through. So not a quick solution but gentle and loving and no crying etc. in terms of settling ds, we vaguely did the Pantley no cry method where you gradually decrease the amount of help you give the baby to fall asleep, so we went from rocking ds to sleep then putting in cot to decreasing the rocking and putting him down more awake until he went down totally awake and got himself to sleep. Agree with other posters to keep night feeds dark and calm and in the same place as baby sleeps. Also our ds even now (10 months) doesn't leave his room in the night unless he's poorly etc in which case all rules are off and he just gets as much cuddling as he needs! Our ds has started waking again due to separation anxiety and this time we are using the gradual retreat method as the Pantley method wasn't as effective now he's older. Could be worth looking into if you're thinking about gentle sleep training in the future.
Also agree that lots of fresh air helps their body clocks adjust. Me and ds always had a gad about in the pram from about 2 weeks (ie when I could walk again!!!) unless horrendous weather and he knew the difference between night and day early on. Could have been a coincidence though tbh, as even now he hates sleeping in the day! Anyway, good luck x

Thanks everyone for your advice. I think the problem with DD isn't so much her waking regularly for night feeds (which I know is normal for her age with such a tiny tummy, and that she's going to need to do this for a long while yet) it's trying to get her back to sleep again after she has woken up. Last night for example she woke up for a feed at 3am and I couldn't get her back to sleep again until 6.45am (and obviously there were several other feeds she had taken by then). I think she is also getting trapped wind / colic a lot at night as she seems genuinely distressed sometimes so I'm going to try and give her infacol with her night feeds (and obviously make sure she is being winded properly after each feed). Even when this isn't a problem she only ever wants to fall asleep on either me or DH at night and then we struggle to put her down again in her moses basket without waking her up.

We are definitely going to try and keep things dark at night though for her from now on in the hope that it helps a bit adjust her body clock a bit, and I try and get her out for some natural daylight every day as well (weather permitting). DH also wants us to try and only use her moses basket for nights now as well (and she can nap in other places in the day) in the hope that she can start to associate the moses basket with sleeping. I don't think it's worth us having a 'bedtime' just yet as she is still tending to cluster feed most evenings and I think we just need to go with the flow with this for a bit until she stops cluster feeding and we can start a proper 'bedtime routine'. Thank you for all of your advice and experiences. xx

Oh and we have tried swaddling and dummies and she doesn't appear keen on either.

I don't think babies know the difference between day and night until 6 weeks. We didn't do routines when she was a tiny baby but had different night and day attitudes. When she woke at night we would just feed her, no talking or playing. We would cuddle her but in a sleepy calm way! Then after 6 weeks she started to only wake for food. She would go up to bed with us. Over the next few months she would be ready for an earlier bed time and we could adjust it to fit her. At about 20 weeks she was going to bed from 7-7 waking for feeds. At 4 weeks I just could imagine that it would happen but it did and we just gradually adjusted what we did :)!

Couldn't imagine not could! Also to add that at 4 weeks we had lots of wakeful periods from 2-5am. :)

She will only want to sleep on you, especially between midnight and 5am when sleep cycles are the shortest. She was in you for nine months up until a few weeks ago so it's a long transition to make, and she needs to know she's safe to sleep. Co-sleeping (just you and her, no duvets, her on top of a blanket in a sleeping bag of her own, well away from your pillow) is probably the best way you can help her make this transition. It will set her body clock to sleep rather than wake in a panic during these tricky hours and should help her fall asleep more quickly after night feeds, especially if you feed lying down. Once you've cracked that would be the time to make the transition to the Moses basket as her nocturnal clock should have been stabilised a bit.

You might find the Forth Trimester stuff interesting OP. Lots on google.

I agree with others though. Keep it dark and boring at night and bright and exciting during the day. Go out in daylight every day if you can - apparently helps reset their circadian rhythm or something. You also don't have to change a wet nappy at every feed. You can skip this unless it makes them sore as it can wake them up too much. By 4 weeks we'd stopped changing at night feeds. Ideally you want those awake periods to be during the day when you have the energy to show her things and chat, but she'll switch soon enough.

It's tough during those first weeks on your own. You can help yourself by having very achievable daytime goals. Having a shower. Going to the shop for biscuits. Even just leaving the house. Don't even think about cleaning or cooking if you're very tired - it's not important.