Feel like I'm losing it - how do you carry on?

[Minesahotchocolate]

DD1 was a good sleeper - I had no idea of the torture in store when I decided to have a second. DD2 is now 10 months and she still wakes on average every 90mins -2hours through the night. Occasionally she'll throw a better stretch in there, but generally, she wakes frequently. She's BF, not a great eater (we've tried purees and BLW), and still has no teeth (but there's nothing to suggest that teething is responsible). She also barely naps in the daytime, averaging 45mins around midday.

I just have no idea how to get her to sleep better. The continued poor sleep is really getting me down and I am finding it hard to enjoy being near her. All I want (and think about) is escape. I hate this situation - but as her main source of food is still from me, I can't even go far for long before needing to come home again (bottles don't work). I spoke to some other Mums today who said their (older) bad sleepers carried on not sleeping for a long time. Feeling really despondent about it and trapped :( I'm sure if I could only sleep then my mood would pick up - but god only knows when that'll ever happen.

Any suggestions?? Feeling desperate.

Have you read the No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley?

Does she seem genuinely hungry when she wakes? If you think it's comfort she wants, maybe try white noise?
I had two rubbish sleepers who didn't sleep through until 14 and 19mths. Co- sleeping got me through. I remember crying with exhaustion.

Hi Mintyy - I've not read that one. To be honest, I feel quite low at the moment and I can't really focus on reading anything much more than a few paragraphs.

Matchsticks - I think she might be hungry, but she only feeds each time for a short time (say 10/15mins). It doesn't seem to be comfort as co-sleeping makes no difference - she just doesn't sleep if I do that! So... it must be food then right? (this is helpful having someone with a functioning brain help to reason it through as I can't think straight at the mo).

She sounds massively overtired to me. I'd work on the day time naps first - good day sleep will improve night sleep. First nap two hours after waking for the day.

Does she self-settle?

Does she seem in any discomfort? I only ask as DS would only have very short feeds and turned out to have silent reflux.

Hollie - That was my latest theory too. I tried to get her to nap in the daytime, and also actually got her to bed 3(!!!!) hours earlier than normal... we had one good night (only 2 awakenings) and it was amazing and then it has got worse again.

She most definitely isn't a self settler. She gets massively angry and cross if you dare to put her in her cot (unless she's already fed herself to sleep first). She often wakes and looks exhausted and cranky, but how to get her to nap? Yesterday, she fell asleep twice around midday, but woke the instant she was put in her cot. In the end she didn't nap the entire day (tho 40mins ish is more usual for her). Rarely does she nap longer. Today, she actually had a 90min nap at midday... and now I can't get her to go to bed. She had been settling around 8pm, and we're now 2 hours later.

Any ideas how to get her to settle only 2 hours after we get up? Thanks hugely for the suggestions.

Matchsticks - she's not obviously unhappy. I do only ever let her feed from one side though as when she was tiny she was a real little milk fountain (I would have to keep towels to hand). The only time that has happened lately was when there'd been a longer than usual gap between feeds and I foolishly let her feed from both sides... does that sound at all reflux like?

If she can't self settle then she's going to wake every time she stirs and not be able to get herself back off. How you teach her to self-settle is personal preference really - pick up/put down and controlled crying are probably the most common techniques.

I would stop feeding her to sleep - change your routine around a bit so she has a feed before her bath or story, then put her down awake. You could cuddle or rock her until she is almost asleep, put her down and pat/ssh her in the cot. If she gets very upset pick her up and comfort her again but then put her down awake (that's the key). It's not an easy fix though and takes consistency.

I would also suggest a really strong day time and bed time routine. Something like up at 7am, nap 9-10am, nap 1-3pm, bed at 7pm usually works well.

No, DS was arched back against me in agony, so doesn't sound like it. I did pick up, put down with white noise to get DD to self-soothe. For DS picking him up made him worse, so I'd just sit and pat him through the cot bars.

If she's throwing up then it could be reflux related, maybe ask the dr for advice?

She must be overtired though. My baby's sleep overnight is still a work in progress, but she's sleeping much better in the day now I've given up trying to get her to sleep in the cot and am putting her down in the pushchair in the garden. Then I can jiggle/rock/walk as needed and there aren't any big distractions to keep her awake.

Advice I found which was helpful was that at this age they should nap 2 hours after waking, then again 3 hours after that sleep, then bedtime is 4 hours after that... so e.g.

7am wake up (wake them at the same time each day and don't let them sleep within an hour of waking up or it becomes an extension of their nighttime sleep)
9-10 - 1st nap
1-3 - 2nd nap
7 - bedtime

Do a quick naptime routine before each 'sleep', then a longer one before bed and they should be calm and in the cot/buggy/wherever by the time you want them to be sleeping.

I gave up on the NoCrySleepSolution after 6 months as it just wasn't working, and I'm now doing the Sleep Lady shuffle (gradual retreat) at bedtime and in 2 weeks I've had real success at getting her to settle at night - to start with it took over an hour and lots of tears, although I was there with her to comfort her... tonight I put her in her cot, had to lay her down once when she stood up & she rolled over and went to sleep! I honestly never thought it'd happen as she would only ever feed to sleep..

Night wakings are between 2 & 5 times (argh!), but she does have teeth coming in and is starting to walk, so probably lots of things interfering there - as soon as she wakes in the night she stands up, which really doesn't help with the self-settling! But I have hopes that now she's starting to settle for the night she'll improve in time.

Good luck, if you google Sleep Lady there are lots of helpful websites and youtube videos - I found some of the sites more useful than the book I eventually bought, especially this.

I would strongly suspect reflux - a possible dairy intolerance or !maybe tongue tie. My two were the same and I had to clamp down on my diet and theirs in order to sort out sleep.

You could try a sleep clinic? They work by calling you over the phone and giving you advice. They will definitely suggest the napping in the day changes first. You need to ensure she is napping before overtired so try the timings above and do whatever it takes to get her to nap and if she wakes after 45 minutes try patting her back to sleep or drive her or push her in the pram. Once the overtiredness is overcome you should be able to work on self settling easier. We used millpond with DD1. She was an awful sleeper due to reflux but it was thanks to millpond that we fixed it. Luckily DD2 sleeps better. She wakes as often but goes back really easily and as I was expecting torture after DD1 I can easily cope with two hourly wake ups.

I know I'll be flamed but for gods sake try some sleep training. You sound exhausted.

We did a form of CC which involved leaving our DC for one minute, then two, then three, four, five. No more than five. Going back in, comforting, stroking, murmuring, but not picking up....repeat, repeat.

It wasn't easy but I was going out of my mind with sleep deprivation. After the first night he awoke more cheerful and more rested than ever.

However he wasn't a baby who could settle with us just sitting with him/stroking him - me being in the room but not breast feeding just used to confuse him and make him more upset.

Good luck.

I haven't read all of the thread but I definitely second that you need to get her to self settle. She needs to be calm so feed her and cuddle her if that is what she is used to and while she is still awake, put her down but keep your arms around her (would be better in a bed and then you could move on to her cot) then gradually move your arms out and stay with her until she falls asleep. This will hopefully then lead to you being able to put her down (and still sit with her) and eventually being able to leave her to settle herself off to sleep. This has worked with my 2, they both sleep very well now.

Have you ruled out cows milk protein allergies and reflux? Big cause if rubbish sleepers.

I know I'll be flamed but for gods sake try some sleep training

You have to rule out allergies etc first. Feber, the oft-plagorised sleep trainer, even he says that.

You poor thing. You must be shattered :(

The self settling is probably the problem, and she is using feeding to get to sleep.

We had a similar problem, but at 4 months I couldn't cope and I left him to cry. I had tried all the other methods and it didn't work. It was horric and I felt like an awful parent for the first two nights, but then, magic.

He sleeps 13 hours a night now, but he isn't a brilliant napper no matter what we have tried.

I really would try it. Just twice. Good luck, it will get better.

I definitely won't flame you for suggesting sleep training. Elizabeth Pantley is great .

Basically your baby needs to learn to self-settle. If you don't fancy CC then into cot and sit with her till she falls asleep. A comfort object can really help.

Repeat. After about 4 times she may start to get the hang of it.

There is definitely hope. DD was awful, much as you describe. Did the above.. suddenly, one long nap and only 1 or 2 wakes in the night.

We were all so much happier.

Thanks for all the suggestions (am off to google reflux just in case). Compared to some, she does go to sleep in the evening relatively easily... just doesn't stay asleep. Daytime naps however are a whole other story as if we're out in the pushchair she gets so distracted she stays awake, if we're in the house she fights it too. Not sure how to work that one.

I think you are right, I do need to try a combination of sleep training +/or teaching her to self settle. Atrocious we did use a form of CC with DD1 (but not until she was 18months). I wouldn't rule it out tho. Leeloo and Tortoise thanks for the suggestions - I'll probably try something along those lines first (keeping CC for reserve). Her problem is that she gets SO wound up and cross. I'm not sure that me holding her will calm her... it might be that CC is the only way to go as if I'm in the room but not picking her up or feeding her I suspect it will enrage her further.

Atrocious you are right tho - I am exhausted. We don't have family near by and have just recently found a babysitter to help a bit at weekends so I can have a break... but then I just dread having to go back! (esp. as DD2 goes mental/gets furious if I leave her any length of time). I feel like my mental health is really suffering (purely cos of the tiredness). Last winter was brutal and I can't imagine continuing still with minimal sleep into another.

Thanks folks for the suggestions - my mind is so muddled I don't know what to try next, but you've given me some things to consider. The 2, 3, 4 hour thing is good to know too. Still not sure what will work to get her to nap tho!

Some have mentioned allergies - ie. milk protein - how would I know?

First of all, you must be exhausted. My ds was like this and for a few nights I slept and my mum woke me for him to feed then took him back to settle him. I felt so much better (and could think clearly) once I had had some sleep. Have you got anyone who could do this for you?
My dd had reflux like you described, vomiting like a fountain (soaked me once through to the skin) but also arched. It is worth seeing your gp/hv to exclude this.
We tried pick up put down and it did eventually work but it took several weeks. My hv told me it may not have worked initially as I did it with him and he could smell milk on me and thought yum! Comfort feed. He was in effect using me as a human dummy.
My ds was a poor eater, some day he would just eat one pitot filous (I had the best feed bin in the uk!? )
A friend tried cc and found it good and others just had 'sleepers'

The poor sleep, vomiting, crying out at random, smelly acidic burps, poor feeding habits, doesn't like solids much - these are all likely suspects.

I ended up giving up dairy and soya as that was the only way I could tell.

Also get her checked for tongue tie. If she feeds frequently and gags a lot with solids, it could be that. With tongue tie, the symptoms are similar to reflux.

Also I did get mine to self settle with cc - I would start bedtime early and feed as normal then wind them (dd still needed winding until nearly 2 due to tongue tie where she took in air). Then pop onto their tummies after I'd rocked them and stroke their backs. So they would fall asleep in the cot. It didn't always work so I would rock and try again another day. Other times I would put them down and leave the room if they didn't cry. Basically a trial and error method. I will admit I got pissed off and DH would have to take over as they'd sense my frustration but we got there.

Self settling didn't however make them sleep through!

Self settle without cc. Sorry , I didn't use cc!