DS 2.5 naps at nursery, some medical issues too.

[drspouse]

DS appears to have stopped napping at nursery which might be normal and age appropriate except that a) he still naps for up to two hours, longer if tired, at home b) he came home early yesterday, fell asleep in the buggy and then had an hour's nap at 4.30 -less than ideal! and c) he has been having some fits which are under investigation but may well be triggered by lack of sleep

So I'm not sure what to do.

I'm on leave with DD so in theory he could go mornings only, but I do need to do things in the afternoon (including a few KiT days which are mainly informal meetings that I can take DD to and bounce her on my knee, but I can't take him).
I'd also be paying for his full days too.

They have the fairly typical setup where they all nap on a big soft area with very light curtains. He will lie down and rest. It was a bit like this in the younger room - he was napping twice at home, they refused to believe he would nap in the mornings, then some older children left and they found him a little basket thing (!) and lo and behold he napped twice for a while.

He is now one of the older ones and they are moving all that age group to a new room - so there won't be any just-turned-twos who will be definitely napping well.

I'm not really able to tell nursery what the medical issue is yet (because I don't know) but I can tell them the doctor thinks lack of sleep isn't helping.

Should they be doing anything? What can I suggest? Or just give up on napping at nursery? And then what?

If he went to bed an hour early at home that might do the trick, I suppose, but he still needs to have tea when he gets home, and I'd quite like to have DH home at his bathtime, both so they can actually see each other, and for my sanity, even if DH just ends up holding DD and doing story.

Forgot to say, at home he goes in his room, we shut the curtains and the door, and he's asleep quickly. It isn't hard at all to get him to nap! He will go down in random houses in a darkened room too.

Unfortunatly I don't think there is a lot you can do if they are trying to get him to sleep. They can't force him to sleep and it's pretty normal for children to drop naps at nursery before home.

Can you change his routine at home so he is going to bed earlier on nurserh days?

As I've said, if he goes to bed earlier on nursery days, he won't see DH, and I will have to do bath/bedtime alone (which I will have to do sometimes, but I'd rather it wasn't an everyday thing, especially as I'm just settling in to being home with both of them).
We actually have almost no time at home as it is before bed, if I pick him up at the normal finish time, I'm lucky if I'm home by 5.45, then he needs his tea even if we aren't all eating together, if DH train is on time he gets in at 6.05. Then either we all eat together almost immediately, or I start bedtime while DH takes DD or vice versa, at about 6.15. If we eat together we start bedtime about 6.30.

So there's very little leeway. If DH train is late, he often doesn't see him anyway - and that's the same on non-nursery days too.

It does get harder to get them to go down reliably as they get older. My toddler is ok if I'm on my own but during weekends and holidays when the older siblings are around she hasn't wanted to miss out on what's going on and some days I haven't for her to nap until really late (eg 4pm) then I can only let her sleep for a short time so It doesn't affect bedtime too badly. He may be too keen to play at nursery to want to sleep. Good luck with it, and the medical issues. Hope you work it out.

I agree there isn't much you can do. They are encouraging him to nap but they can't make him sleep.
That transition stage is awful you have my sympathy. When they aren't quite tired enough or too occupied during the day to nap but falling asleep in their dinner at night.

All I can say is it does pass and they are usually good at regulating their body clock fairly quickly. The only thing I can suggest is adjust his sleep at home to accommodate the dropped nap. It's very common for children even babies to not nap the same at nursery as they do at home.

I think it could be an age thing but also the setting. Dd is 28 months and no longer naps at nursery but will sleep 90 mins to 2 hours at home. I spoke to the staff about it and apparently none of the kids in her age group nap anymore while at nursery. As well as an age thing I think it's the setting. There's so much going on I don't think she wants to miss out on anything. They can't make her sleep and will only try for 20 mins. So rather than ask them to get her to have a nap they encourage her to have some quiet time, so she often will have a lie/sit down in a comfy spot n have a few stories.

I do think this is the nursery attitude - he doesn't really want or need the nap - but the problem is that he DOES need the nap, in fact the last fit he had was the day after one of his first non-napping nursery days .

But what do you expect the nursery to do? You can not force a child to nap.

I would pick him up at 4 on a nursery day, feed him early and then put him to bed as soon as he wants so he gets more sleep that way. Yes it's not ideal but it's probably the best way to ensure he is getting enough sleep.

How about you let him nap when he gets home and then he stays up a bit later to see your DH?
I agree that there is nothing the nursery can do if he won't sleep, they can't force him. And it already sounds like they have a nice set up for naps if that's what he wanted

Dd is 2.6 and won't nap if everything is too exciting - so far this means she naps well at nursery, mostly ok at home except on days I really need her to, and not at all elsewhere.

I find a nap at 4 or 5 isn't a problem as long as I wake her in time for dinner.

Could you move bedtime slightly later or compress the routine - dd is going upstairs round 7, in bed 7.15 on school nights, and generally doesn't get a bath when I work. In the mornings I leave her as long as possible before hauling out of bed, then into clothes and in buggy with some fruit or milk or snack to tide her over until breakfast at nursery.

It'll probably sort itself out in a month or so. Dd is staying up a bit later as ds is off school, but has to be upstairs by 7.15 or all hell breaks loose!

I was hoping someone might have some examples of things their nurseries have done differently (in general, for all the children, or for specific children).

It's not a particularly helpful set up for naps to be honest - with all the children on the same mat, and no darkness (the "curtains" are just sheer).

It's really not that difficult to get him to nap, it's not like we have to tie him down at home!

I could pick him up at 4 some days but I'm not sure I could do that regularly. I would have to see if he slept through then, too - he's previously had naps starting at 4.30 or 5 either accidentally (e.g. in the car) or because he's been hellish following no nap, but he's always woken up or we've woken him up deliberately before bedtime.

IME 2.5yo is a very typical time for dropping a nap. And yes, it will make them very tired ( and your life a misery) in the late afternoon/early evening. Not much you or nursery can do about a child who doesn't want to nap, but you may have to change your routine for a while.

When my DCs dropped their nap I did some or all of the following:

Put them to bed MUCH earlier in the evening (6.30) however inconvenient this was to family life.

Give eating as a family a break for a few months and do dinner for DC very early (had to do this after DD feel asleep IÑ her dinner!).

If possible, pick up from nursery earlier.

Go for a drive every few days to facilitate an afternoon catch-up nap.

Children change their routines all the time, and family life needs to adapt.

Thanks, notcitrus - last night when he napped from 4.30 to 5.30, he then vegged on the sofa in front of Toy Story for half and hour quite happily, but then had a COMPLETE tantrum over tea and bed. I'm not sure if he wouldn't have had the tantrum if I'd let him nap longer, or if I'd let him stay up longer before bed, but it was absolutely horrendous.

He has slept a bit longer this morning - they won't give him breakfast at nursery, and it doesn't start till 8.45, though at least I'm not in a rush to get to work at the moment, so if he sleeps late he can just have a late breakfast.

Thanks also Bee... "Much earlier" for you is unfortunately our normal bedtime! And as I've posted above, we don't have any time for him to have tea between coming home and the normal bedtime.

I just get the feeling that he does want to nap, and if I could think of something they could do to help him, he would.

And he definitely still needs to nap - and it's NOT just a case of him being tired/cross in the early evening - it is a case of whether or not he has a fit. I do mean an actual seizure. I don't just mean a paddy, in case people didn't understand that.

Bother... we DO have time for him to have tea, before normal bedtime, but not if I put him to bed any earlier.

OP - a 2.5yo WILL be hellish without a nap, but that doesn't mean theyre not ready to drop it. Its a transition. And unfortunately they do get to an age where they don't want to miss out on what's going in, particularly in nursery.

Xpost about the seizure.

If children are tired enough they will sleep anywhere
They don't need dark or quiet even
We once had a nursery party and Twp children slept through it - the entertainer, the huge sound system, the screaming, everything. The children were in the she room just a few feet away.
2 1/2 is the classic age to drop sleeps and it can be a hellish time for all concerned.
I would say that you can't really expect the stafftto get him yo sleep if he ismt needing the sleep at that time.
He may be tired later so he will just have to have an earlier back h and bed time
If you have concerns about seizures I really think you should be talking yo the nursery about it.

My childminder is excellent about naps- is it worth exploring a different care provision for him?

Perhaps in a smaller setting it would be easier?

Little we do also have a CM but we had to cancel her while I'm on leave, and the nursery place is booked for the year. It's my workplace nursery so it would be hard if they weren't both there when I go back to work (it's a lot cheaper, for a start, due to the employer scheme).

By the time I go back, I would imagine he'll be fine without a nap, so he'll be OK in nursery, but we were trying to have some continuity while he gets used to his new sister etc etc.

Also while the CM is good with naps/routine, he's the only child there most days. So it doesn't give him the social experience that nursery does. So it would be something to consider if we can't sort it out, but something expensive, as we'd pay twice.

We are struggling with the same thing. Doesn't want to sleep at nursery - so we told them not to fight with him and let him stay awake. He then also falls asleep at 4.30 and we have to wrench him up again within the hour. He then struggles to fall asleep at night or wakes up ridiculously early in the morning.

Very glad to hear this is all normal! pass the coffee yawn.

Ok, so we took in an extra comfort item today to see if that helps, and I told them my concerns about the seizures, which they were suitably worried about. So we'll see. Tomorrow is not a nursery day thankfully.

I disagree that you can't expect nursery to change. Firstly you need to discuss this with the nursery. They need to understand that he is under investigation for fitting. What would happen if he had a fit while at nursery? They also need to understand that the fits may be connected to lack if sleep, and that napping is a clinical need for him.

Could they not put him down to nap with the younger children? That seems to be the obvious first solution.

What about darkening the room further, with thicker drapes?

Sorry, I missed your last post, I see you have discussed this with them.

Thank you Six, if this was just a behaviour/development thing I'd see if I can find some strategies while trying hard not to be overwhelmed by it as well as coping with DD on my own for the first time, but with it being a health issue, I do need to involve them.

I'm going to see if anything improves today or early next week, and if not, ask them if they can come up with anything. The next youngest room has the same arrangement but of course more of them are actually sleeping, and the one younger than that is the baby room but if they have a spare cot, it's actually next to his room so I could suggest that.

The other thing I thought of was to supply a pop up cot or a travel cot that he's used to (and that we can use for naps at home).

They already know about the potential for fitting and have said that they would call an ambulance, but the possible link to lack of sleep is a new suggestion by the doctor.

It is possible that naps are on the way out completely, but it could be another six months likewise so if that's the case, he definitely still needs them.