Successful pick-up-put-down-ers, your tips please!!

[ZuleikaD]

DS2 is coming up for 14 months and has always been a terrible sleeper. We're talking up to 12 wakings a night when tiny - now down to about 2 or 3 that he settles for pretty easily. Naps and put-downs are a whole different story. At first he was fed to sleep and I spent the second half of his first year unsuccessfully trying to get him to self-settle. Once off the boob he needed cuddling/rocking to sleep.

I will not contemplate crying-it-out or controlled-crying, we're looking for something gentler. Pick-up-put-down seems to me to be the sort of thing we're after, but many, many attempts have failed and I'm wondering if we're doing something hopelessly wrong. We try it for a few days at naptime and bedtime until it becomes clear it's not working and then we stop and go back to cuddling-to-sleep. Essentially we put him down awake, wait till the grumbling turns to distress and go back in for a cuddle until he's calm again. Put him down, repeat. Trouble is, he just ends up getting hysterical and massively overtired, then on the way to calming-down-with-a-cuddle he falls asleep in our arms. Which does not feel like progress.

What are we doing wrong??

Oh, and we have all the usual bedtime routine stuff, and the sleep cues are successful - he starts to rub his eyes and yawn as he's having his bedtime stories and so on. He just can't seem to go the rest of the way by himself. He rejected comfort blankets, he's never sucked his thumb (he has a tongue-tie) and never wanted a dummy.

I'm no expert and we did pupd when dd2 was much younger (5months ish).

We never left the room though, we were right there the whole time and picked up as soon as upset and back down as soon as settled.

It worked very quickly for us, probably cos she was fairly young. I did keep a note of how many times I had to pupd so I could see even slight progress from one nap to the next.

If you've only got the book try looking on YouTube for the TV series. I found it really helpful to see it in action as it were and, whereas the book seemed to focus on younger children, the TV series had babies through to preschoolers.

tried it with did (6m) but I think it confuses/enrages her as she doesn't get why she keeps getting comforted then left ad infinitum. I've been told for older babies it can be too stimulating.
we are going to try gradual withdrawal instead

I'm having serious worries about this method. Tried it for the first time last on my 6 month old with varying results. Worked first 2 times in night, but after an hour of crying after waking at 2:40am I ended up feeding to sleep, which just felt plain cruel after putting him through all that crying.

I am sure his little body was flooded with cortisol. Well over 2.5 hours of crying over the course of 3 wakings in one night. Even though I am present with him, how is it ok to subject him to these high levels at such a tender age?

Quick google on cortisol release:

When babies are allowed to cry without receiving a nurturing response, they release a large amount of the stress hormone cortisol into their systems. When this is allowed to happen regularly, their brains develop permanent, life-long patterns of increased cortisol release in response to stress. These excess stress responses are coupled with abnormally low base levels of cortisol. This abnormal cortisol-release pattern is strongly associated with depression, heart disease, and autoimmune diseases in later life.

In addition to the permanent modeling of brain receptor responses, chronic cortisol elevation makes babies more susceptible to illness. Incidentally, mothers release cortisol when their babies cry, too, increasing their own susceptibility to frequent illness, heart disease and depression.

In contrast, affectionate, responsive care induces the release of positive bonding and health-promoting hormones such as oxytocin in both mother and child.

I know the difference with CIO is that you are present with them through out, but it still isn't the 'nurturing' response he needed otherwise my little one wouldn't have cried for well over an hour? So in terms of cortisol release, how is this different form CIO?

Oops meant tried for first time last night

roopachoo if you are doing pick up put down, the baby should never be left to cry. As soon as they are upset you cuddle them until they are calm.

I found it really difficult as he just cried through all of it. The PU bit just seemed to enrage him, so I almost had to restrain hug him tight to calm him down, and of course he'd just start up again as soon as I put him down.

He was sobbing desperately, and sobbed 'Mummy' twice at the last PU before he finally fell asleep. It was the first time he had said it, and I'm so sad that it happened like this .

I started using it at around 12 months which felt around the right age.

The first night will be hell - I lost count after I'd picked him up 90 times. The second was better, and by the end of four days he was going down awake. We've used it since when his sleep has got out of whack (illness, jetlag etc) and it's worked each time without any hysteria as you just can't let it get that far. And this is from a baby who had no 'grizzling' switch when in bed - he was either asleep or screaming.

Roopachoo that's sounds really hard, I would've felt the same and done the same as you did.

It was really simple when we did it, started with the first nap of the day so had done it 3 times by bedtime and it was a little easier by then.

Sounds like it just suited our DD, I am very against CC or CIO so it seemed perfect for us and was.

I did it about 8 months and didn't actually pick him up, just kept lying him back down (as he was pulling himself up on the cot side at that age) and stroking/patting/sshing. He did cry and it took about an hour the first night, but by the third night he was just being patted to sleep and then it was quite easy to gradually reduce the patting.

Has anyone done it on a 6 month old? Is it too young? I don't want to continue for 10 days if it's not likely to work. That will seem a lifetime to him. And us.

I would only do it at bedtime, not for night waking.

Roo I did, I found a schedule online for (I think) a 4 month old who had had no routine (baby whisperer) and we followed that. Still BF on demand :)

Thanks everyone for your help- and sorry OP, didn't mean to hijack your thread.

I find that my LO the after 1am night wakings seem more 'primal' if that makes sense. So TheScience, I might follow your lead there. I don't want to traumatise the poor thing. The 2:40 AM PUPD was just horrific. Whilst he's going to sleep in the evening, he's more awake and with it, and seems he's able to 'learn' this new method. In the depths of sleepiness he just seems so helpless.

Shop - I get why Baby Whisperer does the whole scheduled feed thing, but it seems so unnatural to schedule breast feeding as it's more than just a nutrition thing. Contact time at the boob is a big deal aside from the calories going in. All that oxytocin and wonderful skin to skin... has bfing on demand been compatible with the Baby Whisperer schedule for you?

Roopachoo yes, I completely agree it is so much more than nutrition. I continued to bf on demand :) the plan I followed seemed to fit when she usually wanted a feed but also the main reason I liked the baby whisperer routine was that it wasn't rigid. If they are tired at a different time, they nap, if they're hungry you feed them, it's very fluid in that respect.
There's no way I could leave a baby to cry, keep her awake she not tired or not feed when they wanted :)

With my daughter I'd cuddle her until she was practically asleep/totally relaxed as opposed to having just stopped crying before putting her down. Gradually I could put her down increasingly more awake.

finding- that's seems a lot more humane; I'm starting to think that PUPD is just another name for controlled crying. We're on Day 5 (yes I know, they may regress around this time) but it's been just horrendous. Last night took 50% longer than the first night, which should've been the hardest.

I've spent 6 months doing all I can to build a secure attachment between my baby and I, trying to help him make sense of his world. This PUPD makes absolutely no sense to him. He has started screaming at me the past two nights. He doesn't understand why I am doing this to him. The first few nights he was sobbing almost desperately before falling asleep. Now he is just fuming. With CIO babies they stop crying because they learn no one will answer their cries. The PUPD baby does the same I now think. I'm not knocking it as I understand a baby who doesn't sleep can bring a family to it's knees. I just don't think that for some babies (BW would call them 'touchy' or 'grumpy' babies) it's the baby-friendly alternative to CIO that it's touted to be.

Are you soothing him while he's in the cot? Sshing, patting, stroking him, holding his hand etc?

There is no soothing whilst he is laid down, he is livid and pushes and writhes so I can barely get a pat going. Even PU doesn't do the trick now as he gets so upset, it has to be a full scale walk round the room whilst hugging him tight for ages- he'll get reasonably calm, to a kind of whimper. But it all starts up again when I put him down. I think it's gotten to the point where it's doing more harm now than any possible good. I don't want a child who can self settle but feels uncared for. I was hoping this method would give him reassurance; sadly it hasn't.

First couple of nights I was able to soothe him whilst he was laid down though... It seems he can do it, but he's just upset about having to...

Have you tried the No Cry Sleep Solution? It's been the only thing so far to make much of an impact on our sleep-resistant DC3 - it is a slow process, but like you we don't believe in much crying it out, and in any case couldn't handle the tears waking the others.

One thing with all of these methods, is that the key things are to be consistent and persistent - no methods will fix 14 months of patterning in a few nights. That's why I think it's so important to choose a method that you are comfortable with and will be able to stick with for days, weeks and even on and off over a few months, when sleep is disrupted again by teething or illness.

One other good tip (actually from the no cry sleep solution!) is that the only way to improve sleep is with tears or time. It's a tricky process, and it's important not to take anything personally or get disheartened and think that you or your baby are doing anything wrong - so much is out of your hands! We've had one great sleeper, one 'normal' sleeper and one truly horrendous sleeper, despite very similar techniques at the beginning every time.

Custard- yes we've come to that conclusion, it will have to be a slow and gradual process for DS. He woke up at 5am screaming pure terror, the same PUPD cry. I think it will take a little while for him to get over it and trust us again.

Can I ask what kind of thing you did from the Pantley book? I read it with DC1 and remember her talking about the importance of daytime naps and a consistent bedtime routine; both of which we do.

We did a modified version of her 3 x 10 day plan from feeding to sleep to self settling. We didn't follow it exactly - it was actually easy to go from feeding to holding/rocking, but it took weeks before he could be put to sleep by patting/shushing, then the move from there to semi-self-settling was a bit quicker. The best bit was having a general plan and sticking with it even through social events, colds, teething etc - it was quite hard work, but worth it! It probably would have been quicker if I was tougher on night wakings too, but because we were already shattered and didn't want to wake the others we just did it for bedtime until we had that sorted, Night wakings have definitely improved though he does still wake, probably because I haven't managed so well with the consistent/persistent thing at 3am!

Roo yeah I agree but then I'm a softy

My thinking is make bed/bedroom a lovely place to be, always go to baby when they need you but then put back in their own bed when they are fed/cuddled/soothed etc

Thanks everyone - I had no internet unexpectedly for a week, hence my late return to my own thread!

We've basically given up on the PUPD and are trying the gradual withdrawal thing. Much more successful so far - a few days of PUPD and DS2 was screaming just at the sight of his cot, never mind going into it. Agree with Roo - there was no such thing as soothing him in the cot. If he was in it he was screaming.

However, with one of us in the room reading a book or whatever he's mostly happy to tootle around in his cot by himself. He lies down, rolls around, pulls his blanket around etc. Every now and then there'll be some cuddling but he has gone to sleep by himself several times (well, more than twice anyway) so I think we'll stick with that. I'd rather time than tears if we can manage it.