Seriously though, my 8 week old just will not sleep

[mrsmugoo]

I posted a couple of weeks ago as I was having trouble setting my DS (8 weeks) to sleep both at night and in the day. It's got worse.

I'm not looking for him to sleep through the night or for a routine. I know he's tiny and am completely accepting of broken nights sleep, and happy for him to sleep anywhere, anyhow - but he just will. Not. Sleep.

In the last 24 hours he's slept 4 hours overnight. Screamed blue murder from 8pm last night after his bath when I started trying to feed/settle him off to sleep (I was in bed, watching documentaries on Netflix with a cup of tea and snacks next to me before anyone tells me to relax and chill out in the evenings and feed him as long as necessary and not try to impose a set bed time). In between cluster feeding he would grizzle and squirm and arch his back/kick out his legs and refuse to be held in any position, including the sling and the ergo.

I finally got him off to sleep on my shoulder at midnight by which time I was seriously losing the plot with tiredness. He slept til 2, fed and changed and back in by 3 then slept til 5. At 5 after feeding I brought him in with me. Where he basically just grizzled til 7am and I threw in the towel.

Since about 9:30am I've tried everything to get him back to sleep for a nap - feeding, rocking, shushing, patting, in the swing, walked out in the pushchair (he woke up as soon as I stopped moving), out in the car with DH (woke up as soon as the car stopped moving). He's currently out in the car for a second attempt. We can't keep walking and driving around indefinitely!

I am simply shattered after 4 hours sleep last night and its exhausting pacing round the house with him on my shoulder or pounding the pavements. This is a typical day at the moment.

At night sometimes we co-sleep, sometimes I put him in the Moses basket but his sleep is no better then the day I brought him home from the hospital. I don't mind the night feeds and wakings but it's the not going to sleep til late, sleeping super short spells and the not going back to sleep after feeds that I'm finding so hard. My nights sleep hardly ever total more than 5 or 6 hours in bursts of an hour to 2 hours at a time. 8 weeks in and the newborn novelty is wearing off and I would really like to be seeing longer spells now - I'm broken!

He's so over tired right now its not even funny - he's getting to the stage where he's inconsolable and we have this most evenings now.

I'm sure it's just a phase and it will pass, he won't be doing this when he's a teenager but I'm struggling day to day at the moment. Any pearls of wisdom? Apart from my own tiredness, I'm actually worried that the poor mite himself just isn't getting enough sleep.

Sounds like silent reflux from my experience of DS who is now age 4. Also possibly the baby found the birth traumatic if ELCS. Or even an allergy to a food you are eating if you are breastfeeding.

Out of interest, how does a doctor check for silent reflux? Or do they just take your word for it based on symptoms?

ok firstly - hang in there. ebf can be very hard!

possibly reflux but sometimes this can be caused by tongue tie - ours was a combo of posterior tt, a high palette, small receding chin and a little refluxy. oh and I have a very strong let down! it's like a hose pipe for them poor things! I poo pooed the cows milk thing but I now know enough allergic babies and a bfing pead who has explained that there are two sorts. I'm tending to think that if poo is nice and yellow it's prob not. I didn't really notice I had pain as I imagined 'pain' and 'cracked nipples' to be far more gory than it was. I was slathered in lansinoh constantly and hollered at my dh if he sat on the bed while I was feeding due to the pain. after tt snip which I pushed for I hardly ever used the cream.again.

HOWEVER before tt diagnosis I went to the Dr about possible reflux who shot me down BUT insisted we got a uti test. it turned out he had a uti and then later after commencing protective antibiotic treatment we found he had bladder reflux and so was at risk of further utis and possible kidney damage.

so I do think you should see the Dr and request a uti check. my ds had no specific temperature just very unsettled.
regarding reflux - try gavisgon initially (a mega faff if bf but we found just a little helped a lot in a syringe)

if it helps you could try ranitadine but also see if you can get a referral for tt (you might find it hard so contact milk action if you do).

I saw a lactation consultant who spotted tt and assisted with latch. I fed lying down too which helped. she also showed me a way to wind which is used in hospital on respiratory ward's - basically stretching baby over knees on their back so head is a little down and massaging tummy firmly clockwise till the rigidity goes and tummy softens. (actually it's upside down over shoulder but I found that a bit extreme!) I started doing that after night feeds while he was drifting off and it helped enormously. he also developed a love of hanging upside down!

I believe he had reflux too which got very bad around 4 months - he'd ALWAYS slept better lying on us at an angle from early morning and I ended up having to prop him right up on two pillows (terrible according to hv but I was desperate). he slept for 5 hours straight! I got some omeprazole but it caused awful wind in him so I managed it by cosleeping and keeping him upright.

as another Dr predicted it all got better as he started cruising and his gut lengthened. he's always had a bad guzzly latch since though which is worse when teething.

basically sometimes there's no exact answer its how you cope. but always check with a Dr first in case there's something more serious going on

to answer checking silent reflux - if gavisgon helps it probably is an issue however as my lactation consultant explained tt and poor latch/ sucking lots of air/ frequent burps can cause stomach acid to burn the oesophagus. basically heartburn. therefore addressing latch issues can help a lot. of course bm is soothing for reflux too.

He had his TT snipped in hospital and I'm sure it's not grown back, his latch is ok, can be a little lazy at times but his tongue is free.

Thanks for your advice x

ok, could be a phase, do try chiro but please do just check with a Dr he's not got an infection or anything.

ds was loopy just before he got scarlet fever.

alternatively - teeth?

TheresLotsOfFarmyardAnimals I have just read your chart. My 5mo doesn't sleep more than 4-5 hrs in every 24 so clearly majorly lacking. I feel actually brain damaged by it :-(.

Do you really think getting him to sleep roughly 2 hrs after waking night help? I am scared to try! What might my day look like? I can hardly work out how it would work.

Right now he never naps more than 40 mins, even at night. So more sleep during the day scares me even if I could get him to do it.

I feel so wretched that I cannot enjoy my last child (I am 42).

Please can yiu give some words of encouragement to try this?

Hi cookietramp it's definitely worth a go. Do you follow any sort of routine at the moment? We go for a by the clock routine now that DS is on one nap but I couldn't ever manage it when he was younger so we used EASY. DS was good to work with though as he would sleep in his pram when we were out and about, I know that we were lucky with that as it meant we could leave the house relatively easily.

Anyway less about me! So at 5 months old I would go for something like this...

7am wake up and feed
9am settle to sleep, hopefully sleeping by 9.30am
10.15 awake and feed (let him sleep for up to 90 minutes if he wants to)

then simply repeat, just noting what time is was when he woke up. At the bedtime routine, if your LO will take it go for wake up and feed after the last nap and then bedtime routine of bath if you want, pjs, milk, book or two and then settle to sleep. You will find his bedtime will settle on it's own, I'd expect.

In terms of settling to sleep, at 5 months I HIGHLY recommend shush-pat, here's another link www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/01/shhpat.html

You will want a short naptime routine if you are at home. Into a dark bedroom, a book or two, cuddle and some sort of comforter and shh-pat away.

Hope this isn't too long.

Also, major hugs to you. I had nights of every 40 minutes and they suck, so I'm sorry that this is still going on for you. Why can't they all just be born knowing how to sleep?!

I was absolutely anal about routine as wel and it really worked for my family.
My routine by 5 months looked more like this.
7ish awake and fed.
Back to bed about 9ish (2hrs awake)
Would usually wake around 10/10:30
Back to bed around 1ish (up to 3hrs awake)
Sleep for up to 2hrs.
Then mine would probably have a last, short nap about 4:30/5 BUT were growing out of it by 5 months.

The thing with the routine is that you might often find you're putting what seems to be a happy and alert baby to bed! But, because of the routine, you know that very soon you're going to have a miserable, overtired baby instead.
Both of my girls turned out to be happy and content babies. They were never too tired, hungry or bored. Because of the routine.(I think anyway-maybe we were just lucky!)
It does not work for everyone. Some people hate it.
I think it's worth a try!

Smartie, I love routine but with an older boy going to activities etc. it is so much harder than with first child ! How did you mange routine 2nd time around?

Hmm, well I suppose I was a bit more flexible second time round.
I suppose for the first few weeks, whilst trying to get a routine established, some of the activities had to give way. Or I would pick the activities that fit.
I was lucky in that I had my mum around and she came and took my eldest out.
How old is your oldest? What would he be missing.? Would he notice?

How's it all going?

Well I just wanted to say thank you SO MUCH for your advice. He has been a delight to get off to sleep if I religiously start rocking him after 1.5 hours awake. It's been a real revelation. He's currently asleep on me and has been flat out for 2 hours. He had an hour this morning too.

Now we need to work in getting him to sleep a little more at night - I've started an earlier bedtime with bath etc... Starting at 7 and he's been down by 8:30 after a long feed 2 nights in a row. He'll sleep for 3 hours then but then only sleep for 1.5 or 1 hour at a time after that.

Oh I'm so pleased. I never know if it's something that you're doing of if it's them getting it but either way, yay for sleep! Enjoy being stuck to the sofa watching netflix!

When they grasp the idea of nighttime, it is like a switch has been flicked and whilst they still want to be fed, they sleep in between times which is 1000 times better.

So glad it's looking better. He'll be so much happier for some decent sleep.
Well done.

that's great :) whilst my son has always had tricky nights till recently he always had a rhythm of napping. he would go through phases though where that changed.

during those times if boob to sleep did not work I'd rock or pram it and offer nap opportunities then note the time - working from how long he's able to stay awake has always worked better than exact times of the day. he'd get into a rhythm though and it would sometimes fit with regular times for a while and then shift.
this was handy for phases when he was dropping a nap.
now he's walking etc and on one nap it's the same, but I have to factor in how much energy he's expended!

one thing to note though is that bed time times do shift during times of change - apart from not getting an 'evening' it's not an issue till school (which crackers them anyway!) we had a long phase of 7:00pm but then a while of 8-9 and then back again. my son is VERY energetic and strong and so if he's not been tired out enough he's just not ready fir bed.

but he knows the routine well enough that we can do it at the time that suits us (as long as he's tired enough!!!) he's 17 mo though.

I still boob to sleep at 17 mo and co sleep. the boob to sleep is extra handy if he's tired but not showing signs! I say this as there can be such a thing about not doing this as they can't 'self settle'. I used to feel so pressured not to. it really made me feel a failure. ds can but likes boob too. everyone finds their own way though and what works for them and their baby might not work for another. (a good link to explain this evolutionaryparenting.com/guest-post-african-way-sttn/)

ds is so cot adverse the nursery have given up today and gave him a bed. which he just lay down on and slept like a log!

your ds sounds similar to mine on the night's front I'm afraid!

I can't believe what a different baby I have with him fully rested. He must have been overtired every day - I feel bad for putting him through it :(

I feel you're pain! My boy is 9 weeks and wakes when buggy stops or at traffic lights in the car!

Mrs I just don't understand why they need to learn how to fall asleep when they're tired. I'm jealous of parents of natural self soothers. So rare though!

Mrs mugoo don't worry, motherhood is a constant puzzlement and 'what on earth...???'!

theres - due to our huge brains we are born far too early for independent stuff, (relative to other animals) and the brains carry on developing for 3 years. we evolved like that and carried them on us (wrapped) so it felt like womb etc. all babies are different though and there are rare easy sleepers! there's a more technical explanation on the brain/ body size evolution thing on the Durham university Infant sleep lab site (isis online). Prof Helen Ball researches infant sleep.

Gosh this sounds so familiar. My DD didn't sleep well for 15 months (up 6-8 x a night), I was at my wits end. So I went on a real journey of discovery and she was sleeping 12 hours straight by 16 months (no CIO or CC used).

As above people mention, we had fantastic results with Cranio osteopathy. Also cutting out cow's milk from MY diet (she was EBF), which helped with the silent reflux.

Make sure you're not having too much caffeine also as my DD became too wired from the caffeine in Breast Milk - catch 22 when a tired mummy - I sympathise.

Also to help over tired wired baby fall asleep, we discovered acupressure 'the sleep inducing point' - helps baby fall asleep really quickly. No more lying in the darkened room for hours on end!

Here's one of my blog posts on my DD's sleep if you're interested - I write it to help other tired mummy's. You'll find info on cranio sacral, acupressure, allergies etc on there. Good luck!

mydaughterwontsleep.com/2013/12/27/the-sleep-inducing-power-of-acupressure/