EARLY MORNING WAKING

[WHIGERS]

Hi Everyone

I have a 7 mth old girl who goes down at 7pm after her last breast feed of the day and sleeps till 5.30/6 am. When she wakes she tends to play in her cot for about half and hour then she starts to cry and wants to get up. This may sound blissfull to some but I have been trying this Gina Ford routine and I feel like we have been struggling for weeks to get it right. She is brest feed and has 3 good meals a day. It goes a bit like this - Wake 6am Breast 7am followed by cerial and fruit. Nap at 9am, which by this time she is deparste for, till 9.45am. We go do somthing then Lunch 11.30/11.45am which is usually meat, veg, fruit and yoghart, and is usually quite frought becasue she seems tierd then one side of breast, then a nap from 12.15pm till 2/2.15pm. When she wakes she gets a both breast at 2.30pm. We go do stuff and the afternoons are usually quite hard work and she is very grumpy, I guess becasue she wakes and hour before the routine should start. At 5pm she has tea which is uaually veg,pasta,fruit etc, Bath at 6pm, both breast at 6.30pm and bed by 7pm. But tea is mostly a struggle as she seems so tierd and she falls asleep during her last breast feed and I keep having to wake her, much to her dislike, to make sure she takes a full feed. By the time 7pm comes she seems to be in a very deep sleep and obviously goes down strait away. I try to wake her most times before she goes down so that she goes to sleep herself which she is generally very good at, but she is so sleepy by now that I an not sure she really noties this. yesterday I let her have a 20 min nap at 4.15pm in her buggy when i was out because she was soo grummpy and tierd I new we wouldn't get through tea without it. she still woke early this morning and i had to keep her ammused till 7am. We tend to bring her through to our bed to do this at 6,30am. We try not to go in before this time no matter what time she wakes. The last couple of mornins there has been a poo in her nappy and it looks like it has been there for a while. But that has only been the last 3/4 days. should i do controled crying till 7am every morning? Has she learned that we will get up at 6.30am allthought I never feed her till 7am. Even if she woke at 6.30 and played till 7am ( which has happened about twice) that would be great. I noticed that the first time I took her swimming she slep till7am. Does she need more activty during the day? Does anyone have any suggestions?! I am in two minds whether to persivere with this as I feel it's not fair to constanly try to stuggle with her through to the next nap/meal/activity. i feel very doubtfull as to whether this is somthing that I should be doing with her i the first place - To have a routine or not? etc. Sorry this is so long but I wanted to give all the details so that somone might be able to suggest somthing. Many thanks

Whigers

Just a suggestion - why not try bringing the routine forward half an hour or even an hour (so she goes to bed at 6-6.30pm) and see if this extra bit of sleep makes a difference to her mood? 6am to 9am is a long time to go without a nap in the morning. She may be a bit overtired, so that she goes into a really deep sleep and wakes up ready to go.

If you're not happy with the routine than don't do it. A unhappy mum is not going to make a happy child. Not everyone likes routines so don't force it. You can try doing it your way and you may be much more successful as you'll be more relaxed. Don't feel like you have failed, it may be that GF isn't what is best for you.

However if you want to continue, here are my thoughts on your questions :
First I'd like to suggest that you look at the Gina Ford Q&A on this website as I know she covers early waking (including poo in the morning nappy).

I agree that she needs to go to bed earlier or still needs a nap at 430 PM. DD is 6 1/2 months old and still has that nap on most days. I have followed GF routines with both my kids successfully and I can tell you that with DD, she needs more sleep than the routine. She has 1h at 9 (sometimes less if she wakes on her own) and definitely 2 hours (if not 3 sometimes) at lunch time.
If you put her to bed earlier don't assume taht she will wake earlier... doesn't work like that ! Also any change or improvement won't necessarily appear over night so don't give up after 1 try.
I wouldn't do control crying with her, she is too young and anyway she isn't crying !

Agree with you Pupuce. Funnily enough my dd is the same, is mostly in GF routine, but always has at least an hour or sometimes an hour and a quarter at 9 am plus a good two or two and a half hours at lunch-time. It was my sister in law who put me onto GF and she gave me some very good advice.....she said don't feel like you have failed if you don't follow the routines to the letter, just read the book several times and then cherry pick off the bits that work for you.
Whigers - how well does your dd feed at 7 am? If she is desperate for that feed maybe she isn't getting quite enough at 6.30 pm - would you consider topping her up with a bottle or are you against that? I know we are only talking about half an hour here but in my experience once I started giving my dd a top up of formula at the 6.30 pm feed I didn't look back - it wasn't much but it certainly got her to do the 12 hours overnight.

Hope this helps - let us know how you get on

Message withdrawn

Thanks so much everyone, it's such a relief to have some support and advice!

Florenceuk - I thought about brining the routine forward so it all slots in to bed at 6.30pm but I thought giving lunch at 11am, tea at 4.30pm was to early?

BLoss - you know I think you might be right that she is not getting enough sleep through the day. I have been scared to give her more than the 3 hr day sleep that GF suggest incase she slept less at night, but agree that it probably doesn't work like that. I read Richard Ferber's book on sleep and he said not to let them nap after 4pm because it might cut in to thier night sleep. So as you can see I have been a little confused as to how to deal with it.

Today I woke her at 7.15am after her waking at 5.30am and crying on and off till 6.30am. Every time I thougt about going in to get her she went quiet again and seemed to go back to sleep somtime after 6.30am, so I let her sleep till 7.15am to catch up a bit. I put her down at 9am which she seemed to get to a bit better today, and I think I might let her sleep till 10am. (Can hear GF saying MUST BE AWAKE AND DRESSED BY 10AM!!!)

I think you are all right about adapting the routine to sute your baby. I had been seduced by GF MUST and DON'T.

Melly - I am not keen to introduce a bottle and will try to alter a few things before I think about this. But thanks for the suggeston and glad it worked for you. I will try the more sleep route.

Pupuse - Have tried a bit of controlled crying (5 then 10min intervals etc). Didn't realise that 6mnths is to young. When do you think is a good age if yo need to do it? I will defo try the more day sleep though. Thanks for your help.

Will keep you all posted. She has just woken form her 9am nap (can hear her gurgling). Thats 45mins. Have always had to wake her before?!Will try to give over 2hrs at lunch.

Thansk again everyone, this is great!!!

Glad you are finding us helpful. I don't think CC is helpful when they are this young... I don't know if there is a specific age to do it at. My view has always been to try to sort the problem out in another way. So I have never done CC.
Put her down at 12 today and unless she waked,let her sleep until 3. If she is restless at around 430 then I would put her in her room, in her bed (no blanket) and leave her ther for 15 minutes. She may or may not like it (DD has days where she does falls asleep and says where she cries on and off). Recently DD had a nap at 5:15 and still went down easely at 6:30.... and slept until 7 AM ! Think positive.

Also if it works today and doesn't tomorrow don't despair...

Whigers

There was a discussion on this a wee while back on how to try to get your routine back on track after an early morning waking:

www.mumsnet.com/s/Talk?topicid=5&threadid=1108&stamp=020202104525

But your baby does sound as if she needs more sleep. What might work for you is either an extra nap,longer naps, or bringing the evening routine forward - tell us how you get on! Have to admit, I am still struggling with early mornings myself - 6am today...

Florenceuk - thanks for the link, will have a look. How old is your baby?

Pupuce - She went down just after 12 (didn't get your messege before) and she cried out a few times during the nap but is still asleep now at 2.35pm. I feel quite scared leaving her till 3pm, but she can't have a nap later as we are going swimming so maybe I will try.

Thanks

I hope you did let her sleep. DD had a 3 hour nap... and I know she'll be fine.
I think the trick with GF is to be relatively strict with the routine but to also observe your baby (to adapt it to your child) and not to throw the routine out of the window every day ! I say this from experience but I know GF says the same thing. Also I remember reading that after 4 months old you can begin play with the routine to make it more suitable to your needs as your baby has by now an easier time falling asleep and isn't waking up just to eat...

Pupuce - she slept till 2.45pm (promis I didn't wake her!). So that's longer than she usually has so we will see what happens. She has been good this afternoon (swimming) and tea time wasn't to much of a struggle. Fingers crossed. Don't worry I won't be too disapointed if it doesn't work, i'll just keep feeling my way and try again tomorrow.
Good night to you all :-)

progress report

dd went down at 7pm and woke at 5.20am but I left her and she cried on and off till about5.40am and then went back to sleep till 6.45am!! So a good night really. I am going to give longer naps agian today.

Any sugestions - We are going to stay with some friends for 10 day next week. They have kids (4yrs & 18months). so any tips on maintaining your routine whilst away. It will be difficult to leave her in the mornings if she wakes early then goes back to sleep. Don't want to wake thier kids up too.
thanks

Well done !
As for the stay at friends. I am always amazed at how others don't hear your baby cry in the middle of the night as you would. So unless she screams or cry very loudly, just do as you would normally.
Maybe warn them the night before and ask the next morning if they heard anything. I have done this twice now and (unless my friends were very polite) they always said they had heard nothing.

things are looking good for the moment. She went down at 7pm and woke at 6.30am. I woke to her crying so don't know if she had been awake before and playng. Yesterday I she had an hour at 9am and 2 3/4 hrs at 12pm. She was geart in the aftrnoon and tea time was actualy fun!! Defo keeping this up. THANKS

I always hold off feeding her breast milk till 7am in the mornings even when she wakes early. Somtines it's a struggle and other times it's ok. Don't want to give it before becasue it will knock the routine out. What do you think?

I have never heard of GF until I found this site, and have never followed a "routine" as such - when I say that, my children do have a routine but it is one that they have instigated (if that is the right word), rather than one I have tried to force on them.

DD is my third child (now 4 months)old and I feel if I followed the GF routine I would be fighting a losing battle.

My dd wakes at 7:30 in the morning, has a bottle and is asleep by 9 am (normally by the time I put her in the pram to take her to school, she is so tired, she snuggles down, looks around her as though to say "I know where I am" and before I get out of the front door she is asleep).

She sleeps until 11:30 when she wakes from hunger and has another bottle. She will stay awake until about 1:00/1:30 and will then start grizzling. I know she is now tired again so I lay her in her pram and she goes off to sleep. I get my eldest dd from school and baby DD has another bottle at 3:30. I find she will stay awake for an hour and then fall asleep again and won't wake until 6:30. This seems to be her grizly time (if you can call it that) - and she has a bath and bottle, ready to be in bed for 7:30. She then sleeps through until morning.

At 4 months she is only having 1 bottle of 7 oz four times a day.

When I mention to my HV about how much she sleeps, she said not to worry - each child is different and obviously my baby needs it as she does sleep through the night, even after having a lot of sleep during the day.

I know if I had followed the GF routine, my baby would be tetchy all the time because, I think, she is having too much sleep according to the GF routine but if my DD needs it and it doesn't stop her sleeping through the night, I am not going to keep her awake/wake her up before she is ready.

My doctor and HV don't seem to be worried about how much my DD sleeps - in their view she is spending all her sleeping time growing (she weighed 7 lbs 15 oz at birth and now weighs 15 lbs exact). Because, when she is awake (although it isn't that often), she is very aware of what is going on, she interacts (if you can call it that) with her brother and sister and she is very conscious of what is going on around her, they don't feel it is a problem. They said that when she gets a bit older, she will be awake more in the day.

You culd give it to her after 630 if you feel she is very hungry. What about a proper breakfast anyway ?
I put DD to her 9 AM nap at 830 (because she looks tired)on some days.... and she is absolutely fine - goes down immediately and wakes at a round 945 - 1000 !

she has a proper breakfast after her breast feed at about 7.30am, usully half a wheetabix with half a banana. she had 3 meals a day usuallyconsistiong of about 6 ice cube sized portions plus mashed friut and yog for pud and even some bread to chew on. She gets four breastbfeeds a day along with that. Am thinking about cutting out one berfore afternoon nap soon.

must go - crying baby!!

Bumblelion - You are very luck with your 4 month old, she sounds like a very chilled out little baby. I don't think I would have tried to introduce a routine if I didn't think I was going to go mad with early morning wakings. And you are right as I have now realised she actually needs more sleep than GF recomends. Thanks to the helpfull suggestions I got from this site I know do my own version of GF which allows DD to sleep when she seems to need it. I have a friend who does the routine to the letter and her baby is very 'contented',(and he is purely breast fed). Just goes to show that they are all different, like us. I think as a first time mum Looking at different sructures for kids has been really helpfull to me. I also think when you have more children and some are at school as you have, then new chiildren have to fit into the routines you already have with the other kids, which your baby seems to do. And remember your a pro on no.3 and probably alot more relaxed than most first timmers which i think probably rubs off on the kids.

Whigers I do feel lucky at having such a chilled out baby - everyone comments on how content she is and whenever they see her, she is either asleep or just looking around at the world.

With everything bad that is going on in my life(husband leaving me, working part-time, older children and house to look after, mum having nervous breakdown, etc. etc.), I don't know how she manages to be so content, but I am VERY grateful for this - I think if I had a "difficult" baby to contend with on top of everything else, I would be joining my mum in having a nervous breakdown (and I don't say this lightly!!).

Bumblelion - I am sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time. It sounds like your little baby is helping you to get through it all. Your little angel perhaps!

Hope you find this site as a way of getting some things of your chest. I have found it great to talk about baby probs and been so encouraged by the support. Girl power and all that!

Hi all. I just had to say that I must have a miracle child! lol! Once we'd got through those first few weeks of sleepless night, she hardly ever wakes before 9am..sometimes 9:30am. My husband has to be up at 4:30am...but it still leaves me to benefit from not being woken at 6am or some other godly hour! lol! Aimée is now 18 months, and sleep from about 9:30pm, for about 11 or 12 hours. Sometimes if she's not had her hours nap during the day she will sleep from 7pm to 8:30am..accassionally waking up for her normal bedtime breastfeed. I just hope baby number two planned for next year is so easy going! lol
Sam x