How to get a 5 and 3 year old to sleep in in the morning?

[Coxy]

Hello, I wonder if anyone has got any advice for a grumpy mum of two? My sons are nearly 5 and 3 and are generally okay at going to bed in the evening. The 3 yo is generally in bed at 7.30 p.m. or earlier if asleep in the car home from nursery. The 5 yo goes to bed at 8.00 p.m.-ish and is usually asleep by 8.30 p.m. The problem we have is that they don't sleep past 6.00 a.m. (or very rarely). Even if they go to bed late they don't compensate by sleeping in late. They are in their own rooms but have slept in the same room in the past but we found that if one woke they automatically woke the other one up.

They are then very grumpy the next day (as well as their mother) but still the cycle continues.

The 5 yo never slept well when a baby and it's probably since he was about 3 that he slept through the night properly. The 3 yo was better when a baby but probably is the one who wakes up first in the mornings.

Any advice would be appreciated. Sorry for the waffle.

Not sure if I can advise you, but just to say - rather disappointingly I'm afraid, that my ds, aged 3.5yrs regularly goes off to sleep between 7 and 7.15, and is often awake by 6 am.
All I've been able to do is to put lots of (quiet!) toys in his room, and tell him to play with them until 7. He's usually quiet until about 6.20 or 6.30
I did read somewhere that children who need less sleep are more intelligent, but frankly, you believe anything when you're so knackered!!
My only real advice? It's get to bed earlier.. says she at nearly 11pm...

We had an early morning stage with our twins (when they turned three) and found one would often wake the other up and they'd both get over tired (not to mention us, of course). 2 things helped:-

1. Sleepy time bunny alarm clock - can buy through GLTC - go through mumsnet and get 10% off. We were firm and took our kids back to bed if came and saw us before 7.30, eventually they got the message, so even if they're awake, you're not.
2. Tiring them out in day/ cutting out daytime nap and setting an early bedtime. Don't know if yours still sleep in day but if they do, i'd stop it. I don't think a later bedtime helps them sleep any longer - in fact i think they just get over tired. Things that did work for getting them to sleep well and long were lots of fresh air/ swimming etc. One other thing you might try is black out blinds. good luck - we went from 6am starts and being knackered to 7.30 and being human. If nothing else, remember things do change.

Since my two were 2 and 3, when I went to bed, I used to put a tupperware box with some biscuits and a drink in their room, so they could have a snack and play. They were not to come and wake us or come into our room until they heard one of us go to the bathroom, (heaven help you if you needed a pee at 6.00am!!)

I didn't buy one of those bunny clocks as I think they are a bit naff, all tacky plastic, but a few friends swear by them. I just put coloured tape on a large face alarm clock, of their choosing, they knew that they were n't to get up until then. They were able to get up and go to the loo themselves if need be.

Mind you, I found keeping them up later never worked as they were then overtired. They were always in bed by 6.30 and light out at 7, by 8,9,years old, bedtime was 7.30 for 8 o 'clock light out. I can't believe that people let their kids stay up so late these days. I don't think children get enough sleep, and as someone who has spent a lot of time in nursery schools, reception classes, we all knew which children hadn't had enough sleep as they were desperate by 10.00am.

I don't believe in a strict routine, but bedtime was one thing I was firm about, I never had broken nights, thank god!

Now ours go to bed after us and don't get up in the morning, as they are teenagers, so you can't win!

Thanks for the advice. Neither of them sleep during the day and haven't done for a while now. We have tried to put them back to bed but the 5 yo gets stroppy and says he's going downstairs for breakfast. Trouble is they've both worked out how to get round the child locks on the cupboards so if we don't get up the alternative is cereal everywhere! Mind you at 6.15 a.m. today the 5 yo came into our bed and went flat out again, till about 7.15 a.m. The 3 yo joined us at about 6.45 a.m. but all he wanted to do was talk. They do have toys in their rooms but would rather play with each other, unfortunately they don't play well together! I might try to bring their bedtime forward a bit but sometimes the 3 yo goes straight to bed from nursery at about 6.30 p.m. They have even been known to be in bed at 5.30 p.m. when they are that tired that they are falling asleep on the sofa but it worries me that that is why they are then ready to play so early having had nearly 12 hours sleep. Oh well I'll try some of your suggestions and see what happens. It's a good job that dh doesn't need as much sleep and let me have a lie in today!

Many thanks for the advice.

Oops, one other thing I forgot. Dh doesn't believe that they can get 'overtired'. "if they are tired why don't they sleep then?" is his usual response. I suppose there will come a time when something clicks and they will sleep because their bodies just can't carry on but I'd rather get a regular sleep pattern now than have them suffer when they are older.

I wonder whether allowing them a short nap during the day would help? My 3 yo ds is the same in that it doesn't matter what time he goes to bed he always wakes up at the same time in the morning (found out to our cost on Millenium Eve night!) During the week when he is at nursery he doesn't have a nap and nearly always wakes up at about 6.30 after having quite disturbed nights, i.e. getting up for wees etc. However, on the weekends we try and get him to have a nap of about an hour after lunch and for some reason this seems to make him have better quality and longer sleeps during the night. He also goes to bed at the same time (7.30pm) even he has had a sleep. I don't know why this should be so but it might be worth a try if you can.

Coxy - I read your comment on cereal everywhere, have you seen those cereal bowls like Tupperware that have their own lid? Would you sons like to help themselves if their bowls were left out on the table and they had their own milk jug kept in the fridge? Or would a food fight ensue?

And are they allowed to put on a video for themselves? My son's nearly 3 and knows how to do this, trouble is he always requests my company to watch with him! No lie in's for me, ever!!

God I still can't believe people are bothering to give advice - I think I must need to get out more (or have more sleep)!! I will try the 3yo with a nap as I am off Fri/Sat/Sun/Mon so maybe if he has a sleep those days it will be better for the rest of the week when I am working. The 5 yo was up later last night as his cousins were staying but he still woke up early-ish today (mind you he was sleeping in our bedroom). All is quiet from his room now though so he must be at least in bed if not yet asleep.

The 3 yo fell asleep at about 6.30 p.m. tonight but they have had a very busy day (3 mile walk, playing with cousins) not to mention a fall whilst walking, falling off the sofa and falling down stairs. Then there was the "should we let him sleep because of the bumps on his head" but he seems fine. (Should I start another thread on how many falls has your child had today?) If he doesn't sleep tonight then I don't know what will help him.

Many, many thanks for all the tips. I'll keep you posted (god I definitely need sleep the gags are getting worse).

Cheers.

If my children wake up too early and see biscuits and drinks by their bed, of course they will get up and start snacking and playing rather than learn to turn over and go back to sleep!!! Of course they would rather get up and play, thats' why we are trying to teach them about times when its appropriate to get up and times when its not.

I would certainly support the clock idea (we didn't buy the bunny one, but we put a small desk lamp on a timer switch) and they couldn't get up till the light came on. If they did we just took them back to bed. As Robbie said, they get the message before too long as long as you are firm and don't waver.

The benefits will be two parents who are actually pleased to see their children in the mornings, rather than miserable and grumpy - I've been there too!

Good luck with it.