22m ds still not sleeping through at night... defo getting to end of tether, energy, patience...

[MrsBigD]

I know this topic has probably been done to death but didn't want to jump on anybodies thread as it's a very personal thing I think as every tod is different

O.k. the background... I don't think I've had a full night's sleep in nearly 5 years. First dd was a terrible sleeper but that's thankfully changed now that she's 4.5y. Got close to the end of my thether then but 'survived'.

DS will be 2y in September and is getting worse at night. Never been great and woke at least 2 or 3 times a night but atm it's constantly unless I stay with him, which means I don't get sleep because he rummages through my hair. So I have to send dh in to get him back down.

No issue with ds going to sleep as it's 'time for bed' he grabs his bottle and trotts off. Problem is staying asleep.

Both dh and I are so tired that we are starting to loose our rag, which I'm sure can't be good for the kids.

Fair enough last week I could have understood his awful sleeping pattern as he'd had a fall the weekend before and on top of that got gastric enteritis according to GP. But he's only had that for last week not all the time before iykwim.

Tried going back in settling him with putting him back down, with and without 'it's nighttime and time to sleep', and then leaving the room.

Tried limited cc - problem is he'll wake up dd who then will come and get us (cute really if it weren't so frustrating). I'm not that keen on doing full blown cc as when he cries a lot he throws up...

Tried sending dh in so that ds doesn't want to cuddle/play with me, and also dh is more 'severe' with the kids so if he says 'no' they accept it

I'm suspecting that ds has tummy trouble as he does seem to have wind a lot.

Each time I take ds to the GP for other things I do mention to the GP that he doesn't sleep, but so far they have not responded to it as ds is always very awake and alert...

I'm that 'desperate' for sleep that I jumped at the opportunity to go away for a week with my mother!!!

HELP if you can.

no wisdom from anybody or just bad timing?

Sorry to hear this, Mrs BigD, I haven't an answer but just wanted to respond to your post and say that ds didn't sleep through until he was 3 (and still usually calls out in his sleep most nights so I still go and see if he's ok). We coped by co-sleeping which worked really well for us and I managed to limp through the last 3 years somehow

My thinking is that however much you want to, you cannot make a child sleep, and accepting your child's sleep patterns is better all round. You can then take the steps you need to getting a good amount of sleep anyway - go to bed at the same time he does if necessary, catch up on weekends, sleep in a different part of the house where you can't hear him, and take turns getting up, or co-sleep like we did.

I think struggling for year after year to change something as basic as a child's sleep patterns leads to frustration and resentment all round. If you have tried all the sensible options for changing it, try giving into it and see if that helps you for now.

Oh and definitely not many people around at this time of day; bump it up again later when the site is busier and you might get some clever person to help

Thanks F&Z I guess you're right... dd didn't start sleeping through till she was 3 but atleast she only used to weak uf 1-2 times a night not constantly

I will take your advice and bump later for some clever mn input

any sleep experts out there???

I've got the feeling I'm being ignored

What do you actually have to do to settle him when he wakes? How long did you try the rapid return for? (Is he in a bed or cot?)

I saw an episode of House of Tiny Tearaways where they had to return a little girl to bed literally hundreds of times in one night. The next night she accepted that she had to sleep in her own bed by herself. If he is in a cot you have to persist with just laying him back down and leaving the room. It may take a couple of hours for him to settle and you may have to repeat it several times a night but if you are consistent he should get the message within a few days.

Seona, thanks for your response, as for settling ds, dh goes in, puts him back into 'sleeping' position, rubs his back/tummy and tells him to go back to sleep then leaves the room. I do similar, but sometimes due to exhaustion lie down with him whilst he has a drink of milk (generally around 2300 and 0400). Tried to get away from the milk thing and offer water, which he drinks just as happily as milk...

This has been going on for months, so you'd think ds would have gotten the message by now that he's a) not getting up and b) not getting out of his room...

Then again I think he inherited his papa's stubborn streak

It doesn't sound as if you are being very consistent. Sometimes it's your DH who goes to him, sometimes it's you. Sometimes you give in and give him milk and let him lie beside you.

Have you tried (a) no mummy, just daddy and (b) no milk, no water, no drinks at all? A two year old doesn't imo need drinks during the night unless ill or it is very very very hot.

I would seriously give it a week of the above and see what happens.

I've got three DSs and none of them learned to do the sleeping through thing on their own, so I have a lot of sympathy.

Co-sleeping is fine if you can hack it. I did it with DS3 but I seriously almost lost my sanity and my job.

littlerach at least it's some consolation that I'm not alone. All my friend's kids seem to sleep 12h solid per night, so very frustrating for me.

Oh and I'd be happy with ds going to bed at 8 and sleeping through to 6 LOL... atm it's 430 when he decides it's time to get up at which point dh stays with him and literally pins him in bed.

Oh yes forgot to mention earlier... ds sleeps in a normal bed. Aged 13 months he managed to topple his cot so he went into 'big bed'

DS doesn't call out he just starts crying. I usually ignore it if it's just quietly but he very quickly reaches crescendo with a capital C...

dinosaur,

Tried the only papa approach for 1 week, which resulted in dh nearly loosing it and trust me that's not a pretty sight.

So the reason we take turns looking after ds is that otherwise the 'poor sod' who has to constantly get up would run the risk of seriously being in danger of 'throttling' the little darling... the only reason I snuggle up with ds is sheer exhaustion and that I'd probably collapse trying to get back to my bed - that's how bad it is. 4-5 years of sleep deprivation are taking their toll especially as both dh and I work.

I am also aware that a nearly 2 year old can go through the night without drink. Saying that ds does sweat and awful lot and usually his pillow is soaked, even if he's only in light pj's and light/no covers.

Oh, I do sympathise. I am no good at all in a sleep-deprived state.

It's awful when you get into that vicious circle when you have to give in and sleep with them because you are too tired to do anything else . I've been there and it was grim.

In that case, as F&Z says, it might be best just to give up on any ideas of trying to improve his sleep for now and just roll with it and try and get as much sleep as you can.

If funds permit, there are obviously "sleep expert" type people who will come in and do the job for you. There is one on www.idontlikecrusts.co.uk (or something like that, if you google idontlikecrusts you will find it).

Just a thought - would it be worth taking some time off work and trying to sort it then?

dinosaur I've actually spoken to Idontlike crusts because we volunteered ourselves as a study object to go on TV. Unfortunately though then first we all came down with a stomach bug and then dd started chickenpox so that all went down the gurgler. Though she did give us pointers to get him into bed (up till then he'd been falling asleep 'on' dh sitting in the computer chair whilst drinking mil) and that worked within 2 days. Any other tips she gave we tried to implement but with no luck, but as you said... we were so tired we just couldn't stick with it for too long. Also have to bear dd in mind as she obvioulsy gets woken up if we let ds cry for more than a couple of minutes and then we have 2 crancies on our hands... vicious circle indeed.

p.s. giving up work?! I come here to relax and recover! LOL

Hi MrsBigD, my DS will also be 2 in Sept.

I used to BF him back to sleep until he was 18mo, then we went cold turkey, but co-sleeping. We re-introduced his bed after a couple of weeks and he's mostly been fine on his own.

He mostly sleeps through, but almost always wakes up at 11pm for a cuddle. Recently he's woken 2-3 times a night, quite distressed. If he wakes up a 3rd time, I let him into our bed, as it's a signal to me that something's wrong (this happens maybe once a week).

At this age, a few people have told me, kids start dreaming and can get quite bad night terrors.

Could he be getting his molars? DS was just awful getting his first lot and I'm dreading the emergence of the very back 4!

I've also found that, bizarrely, a big lunch and a short (90 mins absolute tops) nap helps.

Your DS does sound as if he's a bit distressed and anxious about being away from you and your occasional attempts at CC may have made it worse?I just won't do CC, I don't think toddlers have the logic to work it out - fair enough in a 3 year old.

Our routine is..... bath, story in bedroom with lamp on. Lamp off, nightlight on and I sit on the floor at the bottom of his bed. He'll sit on my lap for a cuddle but puts himself to bed when he's pooped. Absolutely no talking or eye contact. I do the same if he wakes in the night (sit on the floor). It is hard work, but they're only little.

I think in terms of sleep you have to be consistent with your bedtime/nightwaking routine, be quiet, calm and reassuring (CC is not reassuring in my book) and be vigilent for odd waking due to nightmares, teething or illness (that's where I fail and get stroppy in the middle of the night!!).

I'm sorry - it's f*cking desperate when you're sleep deprived. Keep us posted.

highlander @ last line of your post

the cc we did was very short intervals, basically not rushing in as soon as he 'whimpers'.

I'd be 'happy' if he'd only go through spurs of bad nights due to teething/illness etc. but it's been constant now forever. As I put in op, last week I expected him to sleep badly but there's just no end to it.

As for ds being anxious about being away from me? could be as I'm 'nicer' than dh about putting him back to sleep. During the day he's quite fine though with 'being dumped' with the nanny. She's fun, mama always pre-occupied with cooking, dishes, washing etc.

He generally eats quite well and usually only sleeps about 1h during the day if that, with the odd exception of course if he's been going bonkers on a bouncy castle or the like then he's zonked for a bit longer and there's no waking him up even if a fire engine would drive past our living room.

You have to ditch the nightime drinks of milk. You have to be completely consistent- they get no attention or reward for waking you up.
'Nightime is for sleeping go back to bed' is the order of the day ( or night)
Make waking up the most boring thing imaginable.
I turned my waking up twice a night for a feed 20 month old into an 11 hour a night sleeper in this manner. It so can be done.
But you've gott ditch the milk.

bluejelly

I was thinking along those lines (ditching milk) when I only offered water to 'put him off' but that didn't work. So no drink at all???

Dr Ferber's sleep book is good, reasonable, kindly, doable etc (I should get a commission, I bang on about him so much here): Solve your Child's Sleep Problem

Agree with Bluejelly, consistency/dropping milk at night will help. Re milk at night, Ferber recommends shrinking their overnight intake over a few days to allow the child's appetites to adjust, so they're not waking because they need it.

ok off I go buy another book ... anybody got a spare copy of it? My aunt sent me a book a while back from Germany 'every child can learn to sleep' but it was so draconian! and full of cc (not a fan as I haven't got the nerves)

I just went cold turkey. "Mummy's milk is all gone, have a drink of water. "
Was very calm and matter of fact.
"Don't cry it's time to sleep. Mummy will check on you in five minutes "(then left the room)
After about 3 nights of crying (never longer than 20 mins) she got the message.

bj can't leave him to cry for that long a) my nerves but b) more importantly dd gets very upset if ds is ... but I'll defo try the no milk route to see whether that makes a difference

Be strong though. You are not doing your child any harm at all by denying them milk at night at the age of nearly 2!
I was the ultimate attachment parenter-- I coslept and everything. But enough is enough - life is so much better when you ( and they) have had a full night's sleep, trust me!
Good luck