3 year old and bad sleep habits

[fairy]

I wonder if any of you can help me here, before I fall asleep at the computer!

My 3 year old ds is a nightmare at night. He has gone from being bearable to having the effect of myself and dh almost not wanting to go to bed.

Here's the story.

Ds doesn't go to bed until 8 to 8.30pm, we have tried to bring it forward and have not managed, just get screams and thrashing around in bed.
He on the whole sleeps well for a couple of hours and then the fun begins. He wakes up by crying and coughing, he becomes more and more upset and in doing so gets louder and takes longer to calm down.
When you've calmed him down he sleeps for about 5 minutes before it starts again, and normally as the amount of times goes on he gets more worked up.
I bet you can guess what happens next!
It gets to a point where he is screaming coughing, really hot and horrible so he ends up in our bed! And suprise suprise he goes to sleep and stays asleep!!!!

Now we have tried everything, we made his bedroom cooler, as ours is, we have tried different lighting, move the furniture around, trying to make less or more noise in the house, and leaving him in his own bed - argh!

We are coming to the end of our ability to deal with this, I know we shouldn't let him into our bed, but thats the only way we get any sleep, we also have a 10 week old baby, who sleeps well and I don't want ds distrubing him.

The only thing I can think that ds wants is company, in the future baby will be moving into ds bedroom with him and ds wants that, but any ideas? PLEASE!?

btw does Gina Ford go up to this age?

Fairy
Do you think the change in his bedtime habits could be as a result of changes in the amount of attention he now gets as a result of the arrival of a new baby?
I'm no expert - only have a little boy of 2 yrs - but I know my friends with 2 kids all tell me that No .1 can become terribly manipulative/ attention-seeking when No. 2 comes along.
We had something similar (but not nearly as bad from what you say) with our son about 4 months ago, but I'm afraid I put my foot down and insisted he stayed in his own bed (unless genuinely ill) as having him in our bed was just making us all more irritable, irrational and exhausted.
But I do sympathise - the last thing you need is a stroppy toddler when you have a new baby.
'Fraid I don't know about the GF routine question, but I'm sure someone else will.
Have you looked at 'Toddler Taming' or Richard Ferber's "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" as I know that they both cover sleep/bedtime problems for older kids.

Fairy, try a search on "Wits End" for lots of top tips on interrupted nights.
I would also strongly recommend Richard Ferber's book, it was our salvation.
Good luck.

All I can add is that friends of ours have been too soft on their daughter who has been in their bed from part way through the night until morning for about 2 1/2 years now (she is 3 1/4) and got there by being the same way as your son. She now has a younger brother too so I don't know where he will go in the bed...Anyway, my advice is to be firm now and not just to let it drift on because the longer it goes on, the more of a habit it becomes to ds and the harder he will be to shift.
Poor you, you must be exhausted.

Hi Fairy, I too, had my 4yo ds in my bed until he was 3 and I decided to put my foot down.

What worked for us, and still is working most of the time (touch wood) is bribery! We started off with a star chart, so that he got a star everytime he stayed in his own bed AND didn't bother us after bed time at 7.30. I think 5 stars got him a treat of some kind. When the novelty of that wore off we moved on to our current mixture of bribes and threats.

At the moment it's: stay in your bed and you get 10p/a turn on the skateboarding game on the Playstation/a friend invited to tea/a curly wurly/ (plus we won't be grumpy in the morning because we've had a good night sleep!) and if you don't stay in your bed: we'll take Walking with Beasts away for a day/no Playstation/no outing as planned to Wacky Warehouse/wherever...

I know he is a bit older than yours but this has worked off and on since he was about 3. And we always follow through no matter how bad the tantrum about wanting Walking with Beasts/whatever it is the next day. He has gone through various periods of still deciding to come in with us and when he has I've done my best to follow a friend's advice which is to keep calmly putting him back, every half hour if you have to, so that he gets the message that it is not acceptable or worthwhile to keep coming in.
HORRIBLE, when in the middle of the night all you want to do is give in and get some sleep but it seems to have worked
Good luck, I do remember how awful it is and it must be even worse with a baby too. Let us know how you get on whatever you decide to try!

Fairy, as the mother of asthmatic children, I picked up on your mention of coughing. Perhaps your son has night time asthma and that is causing him to wake, with the other problems following on. It wouldn't harm to get asthma ruled out by your GP and then you can set about tackling the rest of it. Good luck and peaceful nights!

I have a similar story and would really welcome ideas and/or support. My son is 23 months and has never really slept through the night. In fact he slept better at 2 months than he does now! I tried controlled crying on him when he was around 13 months and it worked like a charm, for a while. Since then he's gradually whittled away at it and at the moment he's waking up 2-3 times every night. If he wakes before 4 a.m. I go in and lay him back down in his cot and he goes straight back to sleep, but if he wakes after that time he won't go back to sleep unless I get him in bed with me, whne he'll usually sleep on until 7. Trouble is, he's really restless and wants to put his arms round my neck, hold my hand etc, so I rarely get mich more sleep after 4, even if he does.

It's a difficult time for everyone at the moment because my partner has moved out and I'm coping wiht this and working part time. I don't know how much it's affecting ds but the fear that it is is making me reluctant to get tough. Trouble is I'm truly exhaustd by the interrupted nights and since I now need to go back to work full time to gain some financial independence feel I really need to get some sleep after 2 years of broken nights. I think I would be a less grumpy (and boy am I grumpy!) mother too if I was less tired!

My latest plan is try just leaving him when he wakes, since going in and laying him down doesn't seem to stop him waking. But I'm afraid I may have to listen to hours of crying after the 4 a.m. waking, and I'm WEAK and so tired already!

I'd be really grateful for any ideas, or just some support.

Hi Sheila, I don't have any great ideas, but you're welcome to my support! I found (I was on my own from when ds was about 2) that being a lone parent was very hard. I now live with a new partner and am happy but I do remember what it was like. I wonder if your ds knows that you are not feeling like getting tough? I can only speak from my own experience, but my ds seemed to give me the hardest time when I was at my lowest. That isn't to say that you're doing anything wrong, just that they do that sometimes IMO and it may be some consolation What saved me was going to playgroup, getting some time on my own, and spending as much time as possible with (nice) mums in the same situation.

Sounds like you've got several difficult things to deal with at the same time: lack of sleep, gaining financial independence/stability/break up of a relationship/juggling work and parenthood. Even one of these is hard! I suppose I'm trying to say don't be hard on yourself, any of these could phase anyone! Seems like there are lots of mums on here who are Gina Ford devotees and those who are swear by her for sleeping techniques: you could try a search on Gina Ford?

anyway, good luck and hope this is some small help.

GF goes up to that age but her stuff is mainly for young babies (establishing feeding and sleeping patterns). What strikes me is that those kids are having difficulties sleeping - not from hunger - but have just gotten use to waking up so early.
What time does your child go to bed Sheila ? And what time would you like him to get up ?

What about going to him at 4 AM with a serious tone of voice... "It's the middle of the night go back to sleep" - shut the door and go back to bed...and then leave him to cry. You say it yourself, you are weak... I don't think there are miracles... if you don't show him you mean business why would he want to make the effort ?

What do you think ?

jsmummy, thanks so much for that - it did really help. I do think maybe ds knows I'm a bit shaky and perhaps that makes him shaky too, or he sees an opportunity!

Pupuce - I don't think you read my message properly. If you did you'd have seen that I did controlled crying 9 months ago, and that I've already decided to try leaving him when he wakes. I have tried leaving him at 4 a.m. before now but had to endure 2 hours of solid crying until I gave in and went to get him. If that's being weak then yes I freely admit that I am!

Sorry if this sounds ratty but your message seems very critical and that's really not what I need at the moment.

Sheila - so sorry you missunderstood me. You said yourself in your post that you felt weak - I would not have presumed that you were !
I was only trying to help - I am exhausted myself for other reasons and yes I did read your post to quickly.... maybe your ead mine too quickly because it wasn't meant to be critical... honnest

Pupuce, electronic communication can be a dangerous thing can't it! Now I can see the goodwill behind your message. As you've realised I'm just not at my most objective, measured best at the moment. I do appreciate your time and trouble in responding to me, and have enjoyed your contributions on other threads. I've been a silent "lurker" on Mumsnet for a while before I plucked up the courage to write with my own issue.

I hope your own troubles - whatever's exhausting you - are on their way to being fixed.

As an update on my sleep problem, and to explain why I'm on Mumsnet at this ungodly hour, last night (this morning!) ds woke at 3.15 a.m. and went straight back to sleep when I went in and laid him down. He woke again at 4a.m. and cried until around 10 minutes ago (nearly 6 a.m) when he now seems to have gone back to sleep. I guess that is success of a kind - we'll see what tomorrow night brings. I did keep going in to him at regular intervals and laying him down - he stands up in his cot screaming - but I'm not sure this helps. It must be awful for him when the door opens and he thinks I'm going to lift him out, but all that happens is that he gets laid back down in his cot. The cries always get louder anyway after I've been in.

Anyway I've been on too long and should go and try to grab some sleep. Thanks again Pupuce and jsmummy. Goodnight!

Message withdrawn

help! my son sa who is 3 and three months wakes up most nights at 1.30-2.00am and plays untill 4.00-5.00am we have tried everything ,taking his toys away(he will jump on his bed for hours) putting him to bed later ,he goes to bed at 7.00-7.30pm I am so tired during the day and so is sa.any ideas?

The only thing I know is that Christopher Green discusses that problem and how to tackle it in one of his books. Last year, they did a TV programme where 4 mums were trying to tackle an issue with their child and they were using his book. One family had a 4 or 5 yo who would always wake up in the middle of the night. I can't remember if he wanted to play or come into their room but I know they were very skeptical but it did work (it did require dedication though).

I have a problem with my 3 and a half yr old who habitually gets up in the middle of the night and comes into our bed. If we allow him to stay, he sleeps peacefully the rest of the night. If not, he wakes up 2 or 3 times after that - attempting to come into our room/bed. As I am expecting another baby in 1 mth's time, I have been trying to train him out of this habit by establishing a consistent bedtime routine of bathtime and stories. Secondly, I have tried to leave him to fall asleep on his own (something he has never done)- which he does but puts up a fight every night (which we have to ignore). Thirdly, I then have to put him straight back to bed each time he gets up in night. Sometimes he sleeps all night without getting up (not so common though). More often he gets up once at 2-3ish or twice (2-3ish then 5ish. I have been doing this for 2 months and I feel I am making slow progress. Is there anything I can do to speed things up a bit? I really want to stop him getting out of his bed in the middle of the night. Even though he has not been allowed in our bed for two months, he keeps on trying.

Any advice would be welcome!!

Bribery worked for me at this age. You could make a big fuss about stickers if he stays in his own bed with a treat once he's collected so many?

Arcadio - I had exactly the same problem with ds at the same age a couple of months ago. I bought a Bunny Sleeping Clock from one of the catalogues on the advice of someone here. Ds presses the button when he goes to bed so Bunny's eyes close, and he's not allowed out of bed until Bunny's eyes open (I set it for around 6am when his younger brother usually disturbs him anyway). It worked very well for us, it was as though ds needed a fun reason to stay in bed. He still gets up occasionally but I march him back to the sleeping bunny. It was £19.99 so not cheap but worth it in our case! It is tempting to let them stay in your bed when they sleep, but I'm glad we stopped it. I'll find the details if you're interested.

Fionn -yes, the Bunny clock sounds like a really good idea. If you've got details I'd be interested!

I'll also try the stickers thing too as it has worked on more minor issues. Might work here too. Thanks!

It's from the Great Little Trading Company and it's featured on their web site which is: www.gltc.co.uk

Good luck!

Can I resurrect this one please? DD will be 3 in January and wakes up every night and comes (very quietly) into our bed. I can't remember the last time we had a decent night's sleep! Did any of the advice below work or has anybody got any other suggestions?

We tried using a stairgate but she just screamed and lay on the ground kicking until it caved in! By that stage the whole street was awake!! Naturally we caved in and brought this situation on ourselves.

I am getting desperate so all advice welcome.

hi ghengis, glad you've woken this thread up (ha!). my ds will be 3 in feb. he was going through the coming into our bed stage a couple of months ago, and i cured it by very quietly and consistently taking him back to bed. no rasied voices, i just picked him up, took him back, laid him down, sat with him for a while (couple of mins) and went back to bed. even if he came straight back to our bed, i did the same thing over an dover again. it was tiring, boring adn i nearly gave up but it did work. i also sat down with him very seriously and talked about the fact that he can only sleep well if hi is in his own bed, and he seemed to take it on board. BUT BUT BUT!! HELP- as now if stays in his bed but has taken to waking up for a cuddle 4/5 times a ngith, when he wakes. it started as i had to go away for business quite alot, so he got anxious that i wasn't there, and then we moved house etc etc so we got into bad habits. when i go into him i give him a cuddle for max a couple of mins then he lies down of his own accord and goes back to sleep (for an hour or two). don't mean to hijack your thread genghis, but i think they're really one and the same problem, just they deal with it differently. any advice folks?

The bunny clock (except ours is a Winnie the Pooh one) worked well and quickly for us when ds1 was about 2. It's definitely worth a try. I can lend you ours for a few weeks if you like, madgirl (not that I wouldn't lend it to you ghengis but madgirl and I live round the corner from each other). We'll need to start using it soon with ds2 who gets up at 5.30 every day but I think he's still a bit little so you can certainly have it for a while.

Otherwise I'd have thought stickers, bribery etc would work. Plus I think it's important to explain clearly what is going to happen, what you expect them to do and then really stick to it whatever happens.

I know how depressing it can be so hope it works out for you both.

hi Sari, that would be great. i was thinking of buying one but can't bear spending more money on sth that i am not sure i need. could i pick it up from you? i am not working next wed/thurs as i have to do v important things like get my highlights done and do last minutx xmas shopping so i could pop round, or if you prefer, could meet you at appointed time at nursery? did ds1 wake in the night or was it an early morning thing?. and have you been following other threads?! by the way your husband is lovely! (but don't tell him i said that!).

Madgirl - I've just been into the kids' room to look at the clock and they seem to have semi-trashed it. It still works but the alarm hand seems to have come loose and keeps falling down to the bottom so the alarm doesn't go off when you want it to. I'll get my husband to try and fix it tonight and will email you when I know if it's OK. I'm around Thursday am if it is.

Yes, I've seen other threads but Sainsburys car park didn't really seem appropriate. I've been thinking of you though and am so glad everything's OK ... congratulations!

Ds1 was waking up early too - between the two of them we've now had about 3 years of getting up at 5.30. There was a beautiful time of about three months before ds2 was born when we got to sleep all night till 7am. I keep thinking it's about to happen again but it never does!

Sari, ok let me know if dh manages to fix it but if not don't worry. but it's worth a try isn't it? (the clock i mean, not dh fixing it). meant to ask you, for the nursery grant from the council, do we have to apply for this or does sth get sent to us automatically? thanks. maybe see you thursday
sorry everyone for hijacking sleep thread. i am all too horribly aware of how serious this problem is.....