Please help desperately sleep deprived :( 10 month old frequent waker

[Babybeesmama]

Any advice at all welcome...

DS 10 months has always been a crap sleeper - he slept through - as in 11-5am about 2 weeks once but never again.

Anyway I'm back at work now & I think we are realising we just aren't coping with the sleep deprivation.

He is a rubbish napper if not in pram, tends to have about 45 mins in morning & 1hr 45 in afternoon if I'm lucky. Got good bedtime routine & is bottle fed.

I'm doing gradual retreat at bedtimes which is working - I just sit next to cot at moment & he's usually asleep within 20 mins. But the wakings are different every night. Last night he woke at 10pm, 1am, 3am 4am . He had full bottle at 10 & at 430am when we didn't know what to do. The other wakings he settles easily by just sshing & patting.

Feel so tired & is affecting family life now, have DD who is 3 who is tired all day as DS is disturbing her sleep.

Any advice welcome. X

Elphaba - That also sounds like you left sleep training too late, although I'm sure you will not want to hear this. I fully understand that you would rather believe that your child cannot physically go through the night without a feed at 14 months.

Dang, you're a nasty piece of work Cote! The last thread I remember you from was a CC thread where I was entirely on your side in defense of people wanting to use it. But obviously your MN grudge spreadsheet is more up to date than mine.

And since I had a bedtime routine in place for DS from the time he was days old, first tried PUPD with him from three months old, NCSS from four months old, gradual retreat at five months old, CC then CIO at six months old, NCSS again from 8 months until 11 months, and have been doing gradual retreat again for the past six weeks with no lasting change whatsoever, I'm not really sure how much earlier I was supposed to have started without being done for nocturnal child neglect.

Wind your neck in and apologise to the OP for completely derailing her thread.

ah dammit, I got drawn in and gave the argument tangent new life. sorry.

Cote just because something worked for your baby, doesn't mean it will work for all babies - a few just will not be trained (Elphaba I expect it's a sign of superior intelligence )

good luck OP, hope nursery goes well.

Thanks, mini. Only about the 500th time I've heard that. His genius had better buy me an old age steeped in luxury if I live that long

Elphaba, you are the one who dug up the argument that was over a day before you joined this thread. I wouldn't have come back to this thread otherwise. It is a bit rich that you demand I apologise to the OP for derailing the thread.

I'm sorry if you think I have been nasty to you. From where I am standing, it looks like you are the one who came in guns blazing about an issue I had already stepped away from.

Fwiw, I hardly remember anyone from previous threads but the way you started going on about night time wakings being normal (as if anyone said they were abnormal) and curiously limiting a paediatrician's expertise to childhood illnesses (maybe in the UK but I assure you is not the case in France) made me think that you have heard me say all this before and were continuing a previous argument. Apologies for this assumption if it was incorrect.

Pretty clear that the baby is in a routine where it expects to be fed during the night! Agree with Cote on this one, sorry.

Personally, if it were me, I'd drop the 10/11pm feed first, and deal with the awakening in the middle of the night with hugs/water and reassurance as described.

How much milk is the baby taking during the day? Presume also on solids now as well?

Cote You had derailed it long before I got here and I apologised at least twice to the OP for doing it again. I'm also not the only one on this thread who has taken issue with your attitude.

I work full time with an awful sleeper that I have done everything to try and address. I think you can understand why I take serious issue with someone coming out with information that I think is unhelpful and demoralising - given in a haughty manner, I might add - and try and counter it with something supportive. And then you still go on to suggest that my parenting (i.e. not starting sleep training 'early enough') is at fault? Really?

I work with doctors of all nationalities and I can assure you the French ones, or even those who have worked and trained in France, are no more qualified to advise on sleep and night feeding than anyone else.

Sorry again OP (and others). I don't get much sleep!

To try to bring this thread back onto track a bit....
I also had advice from a midwife/maternity nurse that night feeds weren't necessary after 6 months as long as baby is feeding properly during the day BUT (before anyone jumps down my throat) my dd dropped her nightfeeds herself at 7 months (she still woke up but wanted to play/cuddle rather than feed) so I didn't really have to tackle removing night feeds.

Babybees: It's really hard dealing with multiple night wakings and it sounds like its affecting your dd so its understandable you want to try to resolve it. Maybe try gradually cutting down the quantity of both night feeds to see if it has any impact? If the wakings don't get any worse then could mean it isn't hunger that's waking your ds? Any sort of 'reward' for waking up is likely to encourage a baby to keep waking (whether its a feed, cuddle, dummy etc).

How well is your ds feeding during the day? Is he getting the recommended amount of dairy (I think its around 21oz maybe until 12mths but I might be wrong) How has he taken to solids?

Like OPs we found our dd got more upset if we went in but didn't pick her up so we started to leave her for increasing periods (minutes not hours though). We put teddies and dummies in her cot and generally if she can find one in the night she gets back to sleep. It was a long process though and took months rather than weeks and there are still times when she's ill/teething that her sleep can be terrible.

We had a sleep through last night with no milk!' 7pm-530am still in shock & hoping its not a one off! X

Yay! Lucky you, bet you feel great for all that kip. Not jealous...not jealous at all...

Not going so well tonight elphalba! I've been to fat club weigh in & he woke up whilst I was out & just wouldn't settle for daddy . Then when I've come home all he wants is me. He's a serious mummy's boy. I spoke to my HV on Tuesday & she was lovely, told me to continue with gradual retreat & just try increasing his day time calories & always give supper - weetabix or similar. She said if he was draining bottle during night he prob was hungry, because he's so active crawling etc is burning more cals. I've come to the conclusion that being consistent with gradual retreat has helped slightly & not being afraid of 'over feeding' him in day could help. Just taking each day & night as it comes!

I also have a 10 month old who is feeding lots in the night. I have been co sleeping off and on since birth but have now taken the spare bed away and have managed to get DD2 into the cot. The problem is of course that she is now waking lots as she doesn't have me (or my boobs) to snuggle up to any more so I am up several times. I have somehow got into the habit of feeding to sleep when I was doing really well on the EASy routine and would never have fed to sleep with DD1. Now if I try to put DD2 down without feeding her she gets soooo upset: rigid with screaming, hot and sweaty, etc etc. I can't cope with it and give in and feed her. I know I know I know that this is making everything worse but I hate that she's crying and so upset. I know she should be going for longer in the night (I did feed DD1 around 4 am by this point if I remember rightly). She doesn't dream feed- never has. If I try to dream feed she just wakes up again a bit later for a proper feed. She has never taken a bottle or a dummy and doesn't have any sort of pacifier. DH is getting v fed up as no one else can get her to sleep. This just ties us all down and means that he has a miserable time if I go anywhere when she is likely to want to sleep.
Am following this thread with interest as am desperate for ideas and guidance.

Elphaba - I think I love you You are right, it is always good to get advice that doesn't make you feel even more shit about your parenting.

Hurricane - Im in the same boat. 10m old, sleeps fine if he's in our bed, wedged under my armpit Put him to bed in his own cot, he wakes up after 40 mins, howling with rage, gets absolutely distraught if we try and settle him back to sleep in his own bed.

I was coming on MN to look for advice on gently evicting him from our bed (getting fed up of being kicked and pinched in the night!) but I can't see any of the methods discussed in this thread working for us. I'm not prepared to do CC and the gradual retreat thing is lost on him, it's boob or nothing here

OP you have my sympathies. Based on nothing other than my own experience with (now 14m) DS, the first time he slept thru the night was the night I dropped his dreamfeed.

I was also at the end of my tether and didn't think it'd work as he always took a full bottle but something just seemed to click.

I wish you all the best, I know how horrid it is. [Flowers]

A declaration of love, no less! Thanks, Jimbo, but we've only just met

I did cold turkey night weaning in combination with attempt number 2 at gradual withdrawal with DS at the beginning of June because the 1.5 to 2 hourly wakings for boob (and nothing, nothing but boob) were leading me inevitably to a breakdown. I sent DH in to sit with him and the hysterical screaming - and I mean screaming which it always has been with every variation of sleep training we've tried - was slightly shorter than when I sat with him. After about three nights he was sleeping from 7pm until 4:30am, most nights and I was spiking 40 degree temps from double mastitis. After about a week and a half, 4:30 wake up became 4, 4 became 3:30, 3:30 became 2:30 followed by epic screamathons interspersed by 15 minute blocks of sleep...and we're almost back to where we started (although a bit better), co-sleeping and feeding two or three times a night just to try and get long enough stretches of sleep to cope. Ish.

I guess what I'm saying is, try anything you're willing to try, but steel yourself for the fact that it might not work, or it may only work for a short time, and that if it doesn't it's not your fault. There are no 'shoulds' when it comes to baby sleeping and feeding patterns.

My own personal theory is this. As human adults we're physiologically programmed to seek out calorie-dense foods (like chips and chocolate hob nobs) because that's what our caveman ancestors were programmed to do in order to survive. Our genetics, cemented over eons, have yet to adjust for 24 hour Tescos on every corner. Likewise, many babies, ours especially it would seem, are physiologically programmed to function in the way babies always have since before clocks, 7-til-7 sleeping, scheduled feeds, Gina-bloody-Ford and alleged 'sleep experts' decided they knew better - that is, sleep with mum, feeding as and when I need to or I scream until a wooly mammoth tramples us all. Just like us, out of self preservation, mothers fed. It's worked for 30,000 years of homo sapiens so far. It's bloody hard work, but others have lived to tell the tale. It's worth trying to tweak this pattern to lessen the workload, if you need to try, but remember you're fighting against several billion years of evolution

Another one here stuck co-sleeping. Ds is 9 mo and I really need some sleep! I cannot get him to self soothe, I wanted to try cc, but dp can't bear it so I can't do it consistently or effectively.

Sorry Elphaba, that was a little forward of me

I read an interesting book, 'How Eskimos keep their babies warm' I think, which made me realise it is a very cultural thing to expect our babies to sleep by themselves, in a separate room, and to see it as a problem in need of fixing if they do not. Many (most) other societies sleep with their babies and think nothing of it.

And I also remind myself that DS is merely protecting himself from being eaten by a wolf by insisting he sleeps in my armpit

OP I have a 10 month old DS who has two very short naps in the day, around 45 minutes each, so I think your ds is doing ok nap wise. Mine wakes up refreshed and happy so I know he has had enough sleep.

As for waking in the night, not much help from me am afraid. Ds goes down between 8 and 9pm after a bottle, and usually starts stirring by 1am or whenever he feels he wants his dummy. We co-sleep so that isn't a problem really. He gets v thirsty in the night too and finishes a whole cup of water gradually despite drinking plenty in the day. He then has a few ounces of milk anytime between 3 and 5am most nights. He's a big lad, who is walking confidently now and cannot sit still so burns plenty of calories in the day. I too believe 10 months is too young to go without milk in the night if that is the only thing which will settle them. Ds isn't eating too well currently with teething and a rotten cold so up constantly [yawn] It is exhausting but tbh I dont really mind the early morning bottle as I feel he does not drink enough milk anyway- 3 bottles in the day, about 4/5 oz. Its the other awakenings which are a bit annoying hard.

We know that he can sleep through and was doing great at 8,9 months but I feel every time we are somewhat 'winning' with the sleeping through, we have a bout of illness or teething which sets us back months. I console myself with the fact that he is no where near as bad as ds1 was. I was up every.sodding.hour until he was over 1.5. He was permanently attached to my boob all night or would cry and cry til sick. I ended up so resentful that I stopped breastfeeding in the day so I could focus on tackling the night time feeds. One night I thought enough is enough and wore a turtleneck top to bed, so I couldn't subconsciously get the boobs out for him. It worked. His groping woke me up enough to get him some water, or shush and tuck him in, it hadnt worked previously but he was now ready to stop feeding in the night. My back up plan was marmite, having worked for a friend which luckily I had no need for.

Hi my ds is 7 months and crawling like a demon he doesn't want to sit for any length for food or bottles, he has a big bottle at 10.30 but has started waking at 5,30 for another bottle (previously didn't look for a bottle until 8 ish before crawling !)

Am intrigued by the idea of supper - what time do you give this my lo has tea at 5 and bottle at 6.45 but is falling asleep having his bottle he is so tired (naps for about 3 1/2 hrs in 3 naps during day so shouldn't be overtired)

Hi snow. We give supper post bath whilst his bottle cools down, but If he's had a big dinner I don't worry so much. We've been having some better nights - he's been going from 1030 bottle till 6 in cot & then in our bed till 7 if we are lucky. I've been giving healthy snacks too! Making flapjack Tomo! X

Thanks lo at doctors and has bad ear and throat infection :( on antibiotics so waking several times a night and anything goes at minute with feeds !

Will maybe try supper if hungry again once better !