11mo still wakes and feeds lots... pointers please?!

[TooManyWakesInTheNight]

I'm a semi-regular poster on MN, and some people do know me in RL, so I've NC for this. I don't want to go into huge amounts of background info, but it'll probably help...

3 kids, 2 bedrooms, both DDs are in with us in a bunk cot, DS (10) has a room to himself to avoid behavioural issues which worsened when he was sharing with DD1.

DD1, nearly 3, is lovely. She's always slept well, no matter where she is.

DD2. Shoot me now. She is 11mo, and I can count on one hand how many times she has slept through the night ever. I am at my wits end, as I'm trying to wean her off me, but it's not going well. She doesn't sleep a lot in the day - how the fuck does she do it?! I thought DS was hard work, but at least he slept through the night once I got him out (that was hard work in itself).

Last night was the cherry on the cake. DH conked out on the sofa, so I left him to it, and went to bed at about 11.

Usually (ha!) DD2 wakes on average every 3 hours or so, after her initial 'big sleep'... she goes down between 7-7.30, and then wakes around an hour after I go to bed. I don't know how she fucking does it. It doesn't matter what time I go to bed. Even if I sleep on the bloody sofa. I can almost set my clock by her...

After that first wake-up, she'll then be awake at least twice, usually about 3ish and then 5ish.

The first wake up, I refuse to feed her - we've gotten that one sussed just about. But then comes the 3am session. For the sake of my sanity, I have been giving her a quick feed. Then by 5am, she's in bed with me and feeding on and off until 6ish, when she pings awake and clambers all over me and DH.

I know it's hot and sticky; she sleeps in nothing but a nappy. We have a ceiling fan going, as well as a window open, to try and keep the room as cool and well-ventilated as possible.

But honestly, last night has tipped me over the edge. She was awake pretty much every fucking hour.

I have low level PND still (although it's probably been going on for so fucking long that it's settling in to be a regular feature in my life now), and I'm trying to wean myself off my tablets, as I don't want to be reliant on them (most days I'm fine, it's just the odd day/morning that catches me off guard)

Anyhoo, so I know most some of this ranting/self-pity is down to that.

I tried to talk to the HV about my concerns with her sleep pattern, and the fact that I fight to get her to take cow's milk at all (by this age, DD1 had milk on her cereal, and another cup in the day at least). DD2 drinks it under duress. All I got told was to up her milk intake in the day, stop feeding her at night, and load up her food with dairy.

so... how does that help her sleep? Or help stop me wanting to strangle her when she's awake at 3am screeching to be attended to?

If it were up to me, I'd just leave her to squall it out, but I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't by DH. He's supportive in the day, but fucking hell, nights are awful.

He's in management (yes, I know this isn't an excuse, but fuck, it's good enough for him), so he demands a full as possible night's sleep. What about me?! When am I supposed to fucking sleep?!

Fuck it, I'm crying now.

I have been awake since 5. I tried to leave her in the bedroom and go and sleep on the sofa, but she just screamed harder when I left the room. So, after 10-15 mins, I stomped back, grabbed her, then plonked myself on the sofa and fed her in the hopes that she'd knock out. Fat fucking chance.

DH surfaced enough to tell me off, not to be "so aggressive with her". I'm not fucking aggressive. I'm firm!

He fucked off to bed half an hour ago, and I'm sat here with a baby who's grizzling again cos she's fucking tired.

Please... someone give me some pointers to save my sanity?! (apart from LTB... although it is becoming very appealing :o )

Shit, that was long. I'm sorry.

Hi I didn't want to read and run as I wanted to say I'm really sorry for all of your stress , it must be really hard with 3 kids . I have one who woke this morning at 345 then 445 , I must admit she s on cows milk but I am back in the trap of feeding h her at 1030 then when she wakes during the night in the hope she will sleep . I work full time as does hubby and he does shifts .... Does your dh help out at the weekend s to give u a rest ? I know it's hard but we did a gentle form of CIO as I was at my wits end when she woke every hour ! She s not so bad now , only waking at around 4 but that s then for a feed which I need to break . Last night was quite unusual for her to wake twice as I thought we d cracked the multiple waking s . Also what does she eat during the day ?

ah poor you. sleep deprivation kills. I'm not an expert in baby sleeping (DD has never been a great sleeper) but for what it's worth here's my 2p.

first, I don't think the amount of milk is really relevant. at 11mo, and presumably on full solid meals?, it's not hunger that's waking her, it's habit. HVs seem to think all sleep issues can be solved by just getting more food down them but my baby is a champion eater and milk drinker and still a crap sleeper.

second, she could well be overtired if she doesn't sleep much in the day, which IME will make her much more likely to wake up at night and be harder to resettle when she does wake. is there any way you can force a bit more day sleep into her, just for a few days, see if it helps? I use long buggy walks to get more sleep into dd when she gets overtired but appreciate it's harder when you have two other DCs.

third, if she's definitely not hungry or overtired, I personally would do CC. you would need to do it for ALL night wakings not just one (ie not just the first one), it doesn't work if you respond differently to different night wakings I believe. I know lots of people, especially on MN, are against CC but I think it's the lesser of two evils compared with the state you're (understandably) in. CC is obviously going to be difficult when she's in with you and dd1, maybe she could sleep in DS's room and DS could be in the living room for a few nights? it usually only takes a few nights to make a massive difference.

I think CC might well deal with the midnight and 3am wakings. it might not deal with the 5am one (I am still battling that one) but at least that would be a big improvement.

BUT - I'd wait till it's not so hot. sorry! but I'd be unwilling to do CC when she might actually be genuinely unable to sleep due to the heat.

Hi ladies, thanks for the feedback,

I think you're right minipie in that it does appear to be habit, as she's not a bad eater in the day.

She'll eat her own breakfast (it varies what she eats, either porridge, yoghurt, cereal, or combination of the above), plus a snack mid-morning, lunch, snack mid-afternoon, and a cooked tea of some sort.

She won't necessarily eat what I put in front of her, but she's certainly offered plenty, plays with it, and tries stuff out. I've cut down day-time feeds to morning time (for her nap), lunchtime (if she looks like she needs another sleep), and possibly mid-afternoon (but usually not, as she tends to battle on till about 5-6ish, then get crabby) with a final one before bed.

DH helps here and there, but gives up way too easily. He does help in the evening, as she doesn't always go down first try. So we do a little CC for 10 mins or so, then DH goes in and settles her. But if I try to enlist his help at night, he loses his rag after 2 goes .

She can't self-soothe either. I've tried dummies, comfort toys, blankets, muslin squares, anything to help her comfort herself, but she won't have it. DD1, by this point, self-soothed by sucking her fingers. DD2 plays with fingers and thumbs, but hasn't got the concept of using them to self-soothe.

DD2 was a little PUPD trained, but that went to pot a few weeks ago, when I started having more commitments at the weekend, meaning I was travelling a lot on the saturdays, so her sleep pattern got shot to pieces.

I'll have it out with DH, and stress that I really can't continue this.

The idea of putting DS on the sofa isn't a bad idea, but it would mean that he'd be up till whatever time we go to bed (usually 10-11ish!) Not ideal for a 10yr old.

I have contemplated shoving her into his room for a few nights though, as I do have a spare travel cot, and once he's asleep he pretty much sleeps through an earthquake lol :o

Gotta love these kids of ours! She's such a monkey - currently jigging up and down next to me whilst trying to add her 2P's worth to this post, and babbling and grinning at me :)

I had a 9 month old breast monster at night until 10 days ago. She did feed about 5 times a night until I started my intervention! I said I would only feed her at 4 hourly intervals for one week, and cuddle through all other wake ups then after a week take her off the breast by a minute shorter than her average feed every 2-3 days.
As it happened the first few nights were looooong and I needed help during the day to recover, but dd actually stopped feeding within a week and is only waking up once. I never thought that this would be possible. The problem is it is hard and I think you mustn't give in and feed if you start, but worked so beautifully for me.

Wow, that's a good plan to think about nickname

DH and I had a very deep conversation today, and of course the little minx has been quite good this afternoon, taking cow's milk from a bottle. I know it's not ideal, as I'll still have to teach her to use a cup.

Odd thing is, she'll drink water or very dilute squash from a cup, but not milk (so far).

But hey ho. DH put her to bed in the travel cot with DS tonight, and he's promised to attend to her as often as needed tonight... (watch this space...!)

Thanks for all the support so far

That sounds good toomany, you obviously need a break. Even if she wakes you up it is easier to stay lying down with your eyes closed that be up and in charge!
If dd will take cows milk from a bottle I would go with that, if she'll take a cup for other stuff. Btw, my dd has increased day drinking a lot since night weaning. Let us know how the night went.

Hi everyone, apologies for the late check-in

All I can say is I love my DH so much!
We had a huge talk yesterday, which resulted in him handling the majority of the girls' bedtime last night! This also included lots of PUPD with DD2. She slept in DS's room, in the travel cot, and she wiped the floor with DH! I can't describe fully as my phone is playing up! Will message in full later.

I had a really good nights sleep (in comparison to my usual shift), and net result was that I felt very human at 8.30 this morning!

We're at MIL's for a BBQ now, and DH is looking a little worse for wear. But he's stuck to his promise, and he's helped out beautifully with DD2.

DD1 is playing up a little but I think that's as much down to the heat and no nap yesterday. I can deal with her naughtiness though

I've warned DH that tonight will probably be worse, with regards to DD2's sleeping/waking, but he's up for the challenge thank goodness!

Will keep you posted how we get on xxx

nickname I'm fully expecting her liquid consumption to increase in the day.

I'm actually really pleased with her as she drank 3.5oz of CM yesterday in one sitting, with more in the evening (I slipped out for some retail therapy, albeit food shopping lol, so DH put her to bed)

I showed her the CM today and she was quite keen on it! yay!

Well done your dp!

Seriously OP, you sound just like me! Right down to the PND, the DD who is 11 months old and WILL NOT SLEEP, and even our DH's sound similar!

I have no advice, apart from you and I need to get ourselves a , but I'm lurking her in solidarity and hope that someone else will be able to help.

Yes please needle to the , and I may sneak a too lol

Were you ever on the August pre/post natal threads? I popped in and out; pm me if you were!

I had to have a giggle tonight, as I got told off by DH when I tried to soothe DD2 when she fought to go down. He booted me out of the bedroom, and had her asleep in minutes!

Bless him, he's pegged out on the sofa now, but he's adamant that he'll do the night shift again.

He was trying to explain what he does... along the lines of PUPD, except he doesn't really pick her up to comfort her (unless she's really howling and has waterfalls from her nose ) . He literally lifts her, and then puts her back on her tummy, and rests his hand on her back.

He said it took him over an hour, and about 30-40 goes before she gave up and zonked out. That was at about 2am. She then slept from 3ish to about 6 so DH took her to the sofa, and laid with her on his chest, whereby they both snoozed for another hour [aww emoticon]

Well, I'm off to bed, and let's see what tonight brings...

good luck ladies

Apologies for not checking in earlier...

I feel like we may be getting somewhere, but I don't want to jinx it! Last night she woke up twice, and each time I PUPD'd once...! I still ended up loitering for if/when she stirred and had a look to see if I was still there.

Nor was it a perfect night in that she fought to go down in the first place. She's got a husky throat and runny nose, (as has DH,) so after an hour of not responding to PUPD or BFing , we gave her Calpol and teething powder, and more BFing, and eventually she dropped off. She slept a good time (8.30-2.30ish), but I have no idea if that was the powder/Calpol, or if she's getting the hang of this sleep business

The rest of the week will tell methinks

Sounds not too bad if she has a cold and teething, both can be the recipe for a disastrous night.

Does that mean she's been teething for the best part of 10 months then?

ok last night was shit to put it mildly. 1, 3, 4, and 5am...

Just read this thread with interest - I have a 9.5month old DS who was similarly a nightmare at night. We finally sorted things with help from a sleep consultant (would highly recommend!!) - although now battling with VERY early mornings. The key to it was absolute total consistency each time he woke (and cold turkey on the feeds!) - apart from during illness/teething of course.

Well done to your DH though :)

Hmm 7 month old here? feeds far too much at night (BF) and I am venturing over here to try and see how one is meant to change the routine without starving the poor kid. I mean, I would howl too if I was starving and thirsty in this heat so it seems a bit unreasonable to go cold turkey, but then again she isn't really eating enough real food I don't think to fill her up (and has no reason to when there is always boob on hand?).

I will watch with interest

Sounds like you are doing really well OP x

How the fuck does she do it?!

The little cow is perfect for DH when he bothers to helps at the weekends.

But now, we're only on fucking Tuesday, and she's been awake from 4 each morning.

I snapped just now. I've been up with her, PUPD, and the little shit seems to be asleep until I try to go back to bed.

How dare I go back to bed?!

After so many times, I have lost my rag. So I walk out of the room before I do something I'll regret.

"I gotta fucking work" yells DH. He 'works' with DD2, but she's not having it.

One try. One fucking try. And he's grumpy. After a fairly full night's sleep and all.

Fuck it, I'm blaming him full stop. She fucking woke up every time he coughed/snuffled/moaned/moved. (And DH moves a lot )

DH comes stomping out of the bedroom and grumps about how I'm doing it all wrong (I was feeding DD2 )

WTF am I doing wrong then?!?!?! Is it wrong to not feed her?! Is it wrong to want to go back to bed at 4 or whatever am?!

I am now sat on the sofa with both DDs, after his stupid yelling session. Actually, to be more precise, DD2 is in the travel cot, as I can't even doze unless I know she's penned in.

Sorry to not be so positive to the new ladies to this thread.

We were doing ok up till this weekend just gone. But I've been a tad resentful, as DH promised to help both Friday and Saturday night, but only actually helped on Friday, as he conked out on the sofa on Saturday!!!!

She has on the whole been responding to PUPD, and not needing a feed in the night (we went cold-turkey on this one, if that isn't clear up-thread).

In the day, she is taking cow's milk from a cup, after faffing about with bottles and two or three different cup-type set-ups.

And do you know what? I think I fucking jinxed it, by relaxing so much that DH and I had sex. I swear that when I let my guard down that much, she picks up on it and piles on the pressure!!

ducks, how did you get to see a sleep consultant? Is that something you looked for, or was that a referral from your GP?

Ds1 fed every two hours 24/7 until I stopped bfing. He was just over 10 mos and I couldn't function (he also refused to drink out of anything except me, which didn't help - no water, formula, cow's milk, juice, nada, just breast milk at source. No expressed milk either.).

I went cold turkey. Just turned off the tap and said no more.

He slept through within two days. It was just sheer habit. And once he knew I meant business, he thought he might as well drink out of a sippy cup as well.

As a warning, this is really unpopular on mn, where you are supposed to martyr yourself until you are in a position when you require long term mental health provision for the sake of your offspring.

I prefer sleep to counselling and anti- depressants, though.

I know what you mean prissy... I've been off my a/ds for over a week now, and I can function so long as she sleeps enough (therefore I sleep enough).

She doesn't need me in the night! I know that! I've cut her down to 2 or so feeds a day (one in the morning, one in the evening, and maybe an additional feed in the day if she needs help switching off to sleep).

And the annoying thing is she's pretty much sleeping through from 7.30 to 4ish or so. I just want her to go the extra 1.5 hours to 6!

But no, she's decided that 4-4.30am is yell-and-cuss-unless-mummy-is-standing-next-to-my-cot-then-I'll-sleep-like-an-angel time! :o

I'll get there. I just needed to rant before I punched DH...