dd 2.8 getting up at night, fed up!!

[bourneville]

First of all i know my dd's sleep problems are nowhere near as bad as some people's. Since 6 mo she has been an excellent sleeper, asleep all night from 7pm till, until changing to a bed, 8:30-9:30am!!! (I knew i had it good! )
When changing to a bed i had to get stricter at bedtime, as expected, and ended up using a rope technique as suggested by Christopher Green I think it was - if she gets up more than 3 times a rope is tied to her door handle so she can open it & see out but not leave the room. It worked a treat. After a while (a week ago) she started trying to get back out of bed again and I stopped actually tucking her back in as previously and again that worked - it seemed that final nice tuck in had become a routine. However, she was still at first randomly and recently consistently getting up at least once in the night for that tuck-in as well. (Once tucked in she would go happily back to sleep again so in one way it wasn't a big deal at all, just infuritating for me who was having broken sleep and tired all the time.) I didn't have the heart to just tell her to go to bed herself without tucking her in, but last night for the 1st night I explained very clearly (as i did about bedtime) that she is not to get up when it's night time (ie still dark) and that I would not put her back in bed again.
So, last night I went to bed at 8:30pm (v tired!) she was up at 11pm and 2am. I ended up having to put the rope on the door both times and left her there bawling although after only a few mins she gave up and went back to bed. It felt a little bit cruel, it being middle of the night and her half asleep and everything, but there is absolutely no reason for her to be doing it due to insecurity or anxiety or anything, I am a full time SAHM, we have a really nice bedtime routine, she has never had night time problems before, and when she does get up in the night she has a grin on her face.
Is this going to work - will she give up getting out of bed if she wakes up in the night??? (I basically decided it was like it had become a routine for her - get up, have nice tuck in again) I am not going to tolerate any bedtime shenanigans, my night time to myself is so important. (I am a single mum, which perhaps makes a difference, i have no one to share the night times with.)

What is the difference between this rope and actually locking her in? Do lots of people use this? I am really surprised to hear this.

If it was me I would put a mattress down in my room and tell her if she wants to come in quietly without waking you up and sleep there she can. I think it's normal for children to want to be near their parents and I don't think a child will purposefully wake themselves up for no reason. It will pass - she is still very young.

For my DS who is the same age, I put a stairgate on his door and when he got up I would return him to bed but give him no attention - the first night you might have to do this a lot but it works in the end. I would be very hesitant to use the rope method on the door after reading on here about 2 kids who died in a fire because the door had been tied in this way - it should also be mentioned though that in that case the parents had left a box of matches in the kids room and had nipped to a neighbours barbecue!

Scheebly, I take the rope off when she returns to her bed, I explain that to her every time too. And i would never leave matches in her room & go off to a bbq! And, i am NOT going to have her sleeping in my room with me no bloody way. like i said, my personal space/night time is very important to me and I am not going to set a precedent. (I also have a boyf i need to take into consideration.) I have always been determined i am not going to end up in the situation my mum was in, kicking my dad out of bed every night cos me & dsis took his place in bed! And I tried silent rapid return when i first changed the cot into a bed, a few nights on it was a big game to her going on for at least an hour & far too stressful for me.

FrannyandZooey, the difference between the rope and locking them in is that she can see out, see me etc outside the door. Also it is sort of her choice - she knows if she returns to bed (or stays there in the first place!) it comes off again, it's not like i'm locking her in willy nilly and for all night. That sounds silly cos she's still confined to her room, but...oh I know how it sounds, i have thought a hell of a lot about it because I'd rather not do it because it feels a bit cruel. But I haven't had to actually use it an awful lot, i've just resorted to it again this week having realised her getting up was possibly turning into a game again, wanting to be tucked in again iykwim. I know she is capable of staying in bed all night, and happily. She usually lies in bed chatting/singing to herself a while before falling asleep. She has never had any night time problems since 6 mo and even when she was ill not long ago and was up early one morning throwing up & i took her to my bed, 1 min later she wanted to return to her own!

Sorry if i sound defensive, it's because I have my own concerns about the rope and would rather not have to use it but if i couldn't use it i feel like i would lose all control of bedtime/night time. The same thing happened with the naughty mat, i had to end up using Time Out instead, again, not my preferred method! i think i am a too controlling mum . but rest assured the rest of the time me & dd have a very close and loving relationship and i hope she feels safe & free with me while also knowing the boundaries & my limits.

feeling a bit :( about this now...

oh, ps schneebly, the rope isn't tied on the door, just looped over the handle so comes off easily, in fact dd managed to get it off last night so i had to loop it tighter round the other end!

Didnt mean to make you feel bad bourneville - sorry and I know you wouldnt pop off to a BBQ that's why I though I should mention the rest of the story to show that these people were a bit..er..clueless. When you are tucking dd in do you talk to her or anything?

That's all right, i didn't for a minute think you were suggesting i would!

yes i was saying nothing when tucking her back in, actually I think i sometimes whispered "it's night time" but that was it.
now when she gets up i say 'back to bed' 1st time, 2nd time nothing, 3rd time 'the rope will go on the door if you get up again', 4th time 'the rope is going on the door. it will come off if you stay in bed'.
if she stays at the door (with rope on) complaining for more than a few mins i go back & repeat that it will come off if returns & stays in bed but she's normally back in bed by then. (i say 'normally' but it hasn't come to that that often, and in middle of the night only last night, previously i would put her back to bed, tuck her in& she'd stay there! I just want to stop her from getting up in the night at all cos i know she can stay there, she has since 6 mo after all!!

Bournville, I've read what you say about not wanting her in your room and I can understand that. I think in that case, you are going to have to just be firm (in a kind way) and very patient and stick this out for the long haul, until she learns to stay in her own room. Many children are still in a cot now so it is a lot to expect from a little one.

About the rope - I don't know how to say this. I just want to tell you to trust your instincts. I know parenting gurus are mostly in favour of being very tough these days, and using drastic behavioural training techniques to get results. I think the ubiquity of these methods in books and on tv make us feel like we are being 'soft', or a 'walkover' if we don't use the same tough methods. I feel there are other, more humane ways to deal with sleep issues and I also feel as parents that if something feels like it is a cruel thing to do, it probably is :(

Your mothering instincts are there for a reason - to help you provide the best care and love for your child. Don't shut out your feelings to obey the advice of a complete stranger who has never met you or your daughter.

FrannyandZooey thanks for all you say. I have often thought similar things about the advice of parenting gurus etc. I didn't take up the rope thing because Chris Green (if i'm right it was him) suggested it, it was me turning to desperate measures! And tbh when i posted this thread i did expect to get replies from parents thinking it was totally wrong.

FWIW, dd doesn't get up because she wants to be in my room, as i said even when she was ill she preferred to be returned to her own bed! I think she is getting up because it became a routine at her bedtime to be tucked in a 2nd time, and she has started waking up wanting the same thing done, i just wanted to break that routine as i did with the bedtime one.
I have thought about it more this morning and it does feel more wrong in the middle of the night, bedtime feels fine because she of course knows without a doubt that once she's in bed she should stay there. (Also, when we stayed at my grandad's, her 1st time ever in a different big bed, she spent an hour and a half either chatting to herself or getting out of bed. i discovered she couldn't open the door once i'd shut it, so used that instead of a rope threat, but she then managed to open it, and all i had to do following that was threaten the rope once and she stayed in bed - again, happily chatting/singing to herself before going to sleep! It was as if she was actually wanting the security of the rope thing before she was content to stay there! She also during the day frequently reads her teddies a bedtime story and then closes her door and puts the rope on for them! ) I feel uncomfortable though about the middle of the night because i don't want her to start feeling like she can't come and get me if something is wrong. So, I have decided to continue to refuse to tuck her back in again tonight and to see if she has got the message since last night (ie goes back to bed herself happily) and if she doesn't, ditch the whole thing and put her back myself! tucking her in and going back to bed peacefully is preferable to a rope performance anyway!

Also, thinking further, a lot of good parenting for me has been about going against my instincts and learning self-control, - eg the instinct to scream & shout & stamp my feet, or get into needless arguments etc instead of being firm & to the point, of not giving my child absolutely everything she wants just to make her happy (that would produce a spoilt brat confident of always getting their own way, eg - esp if after all the crying & moaning that can follow a "no"!) etc etc.
I might be thinking of the very extreme here but still... being a "good mother" isn't just about following your instincts, it's sometimes about going against them. If i followed all my instincts dd would be insecure & unsure of boundaries, routines etc, I would be absolutely exhausted meeting all her (supposed) needs, and i would be a very bad mother i reckon! hope that makes sense.

Bournville - your plan for tonight sounds good - I hope it works out. I agree with you about something that seems ok at bedtime, not feeling right in the middle of the night. We are all more vulnerable when half asleep and it's dark etc, and need a more gentle hand :)

Yes I do quite agree about 'instincts' not always being right. People's instincts tell them to do the most extraordinary things. I think in the circumstances we were discussing though, you are right to follow your feeling. I think if you have a strong gut reaction that a certain treatment is too harsh for your child, you are going to be right 9 times out of 10. I thought from your earlier posts you were trying to force yourself to ignore your feelings because 'the book said you ought to'! Lots of people do do this I think. It's terribly sad. I think parents' basic nurturing instincts are being dangerously undermined by the latest generation of childcare gurus. Where will it all end, ramble ramble grumble...

Hi, last night dd stayed in bed all night!!! Of course i've no idea if she woke up at all, but still...she got lots of well done's and thank you's in the morning! (though up at 6:15am when it's normally 7am but i'd rather that than broken nights!)

I wasn't really ignoring my feelings trying to follow someone's advice, the rope thing was actually a mixture of 2 suggestions i don't even know if they were from the same book - one suggestion was to close the door until kid stays in bed then leave it ajar (iirc) but as dd has always had her door shut anyway i used the rope in the same way whereas in the book the rope was a technique on its own, and not necessarily an official technique, just one the writer had used with his own kids i think!

But anyway, you are totally right that if my gut instinct is telling me it's wrong then i need to go with that. At least when we are telling our kids "no" even if it's hard upsetting them, our gut instinct knows that in the long run we're doing the right thing! :)

thanks for your support.