Sleep regression and sleep training

[Cnix]

My almost 5 month olds sleep has been getting gradually worse for last month or two to the point now where she wakes every two hours. I try to settle her back in her cot but although she will go to sleep on her own easily at bed time she will just not settle back in her cot at night. So I find myself giving in a letting her sleep with me. I'm worried that I am making things harder for myself in the long run and that the reason she won't go to sleep in her cot is ce cause she knows I will give in. Does anyone have experience of this and can reassure me things will get better and she will sleep in her cot when she's ready without having to resort to controlled crying I'm at my wits end :-(

I can relate to your situation entirely. I've done various forms of sleep training out of desperation with my 7mo and what I've found with my persistent non-sleeper is that they're only partially, if at all, effective and whatever gains you get are knocked out entirely and irretrievably by every round of teething or illness. So you might go through the hideousness of CC only to have to repeat it again a few weeks/months down the track

I'm currently following the No Cry Sleep Solution as much as possible. It's made some tiny changes, but nothing significant. It makes me feel like I'm doing something, though, it's not at all upsetting, and it's helping me come to terms with the fact that part-time co-sleeping may be my lot until he decides he likes his cot more than the all night milk-bar his mum's bed. I've been assured they go happily to their own beds when they're ready. We'll have to see. Lord knows nothing else has worked and I've got to sleep somehow!

Nice to know I'm not on my own. We have been following some of the ideas in the no cry sleep solution and have managed to get her to go to sleep in her cot at bed time which is massive compared to where we were a few weeks ago. She just can't stay asleep! And the later it gets into the night the less chance there is that she'll go to sleeping her cot. People keep saying it will pass or get better but it really seems like its getting worse and to think that I'll still be having these problems when she's 7months is depressing! I know what you mean about doing what you can to get some sleep though, just hope I don't regret it

You're describing our situation exactly WRT going down in cot at the beginning of the night then getting harder and harder to get him to stay there. I'm at a cross roads at the moment as I'm back to work full time in three and a bit weeks - do I do another round of sleep training in the hope that it 'sticks' this time, or just carry on with what I'm doing? My gut feeling is that, with the former, the wheels will just all fall off again when the nine month sleep regression (did you know about that one?) and separation anxiety hits so I'm leaning towards the latter, although I may change my mind in desperation once I'm back at work.

If it's any consolation, you do actually harden up a bit to the sleep deprivation. I've rarely had a block of sleep longer than two hours in about four months now but I'm sort of managing better than I was in the first month or two. My short term memory is shot completely to bits, and my previously hazy sense of direction has got even worse, but other than that, the permanent feeling of walking through treacle and feeling doomed has lifted. Mostly. and are the answer.

Going through something similar, but mine is more about boob attachment than co-sleeping. Also using NCSS, and think we are noticing some small improvements? Anyhow, the basic theory seems to be around making small adjustments that aren't too distressing for the baby, but gradually wean them off whatever they are dependant on to sleep. So, maybe one of those co-sleeping cots as a half way house? Or I sometimes sleep on a futon on the floor in DD's room, just so when she wakes (every hour...) I can shhh from there, rather than getting up and down. She seems to like just knowing I'm in the room I think. I'm also trying to get her to use a comforter (another NCSS tip) although she doesn't seem remotely interested tbf.
Agree with Elphaba though, it never feels particularly permanent when you make a step in the right direction - just when you think you've cracked something, they go and change in some new and frustrating way, so to me it just seems CC would be both distressing and a bit pointless for us.
I went to bed at eight last night, which I've been talking about doing for ages, and actually feel amazing today (in purely relative terms of course). Highly recommend if you can.

Maybe I can offer you a little bit of hope (though by doing this I am no doubt cursing DD's sleep for the next few nights)! At 5 months we were in a very similar situation to you - DD was waking more and more frequently, and by the middle of the night coming in with me. Though because she would only lie on me and not next to me, I never really resorted completely to co-sleeping because my back just wouldn't take it. She is now 10 months and spending the whole night in her cot. We've also recently reduced wakings as we've (almost) night weaned her in the last couple of weeks. The things that kept me going till now were the small gains probably from about 6 months or so. We'd look back and realise that we were no longer rocking her to sleep every night, and that she was going down in her cot quite happily, or that she'd done several nights in her cot till 6am or whatever it was. Even just in the last week I can actually get her to go to sleep for her first nap in her cot, rather than me cuddling her then trying to put her down.

Of course, all babies are different but I think the lesson I've learned is that if you get the timing right gentle nudges do push them in the right direction, but it's a slow process and as Elphaba says teething, illness etc are going to reverse things (hopefully) temporarily. We're in a period of calm right now, but I'm sure the next bout of teething and/or colds are round the corner, and will probably coincide with my return to work week after next! But I guess I know DD can do it, can sleep 6 or 7 hour stretches. She's even threatening to sleep through the night (1 wake up last night!).

You're probably thinking oh my God 10 months. But you do get hardened. My vocabulary is the thing that has suffered - I'll be mid-conversation and cannot for the life of me think of the word I want. That'll go down well at work!

Thanks everyone. Just when I thought things couldn't get worse they have. She wouldn't go down last night in the way she has previously. Screaming and thrashing her legs on the mattress in protest. As if she was saying why should I have to go to sleep on my own now if mummy's just going to bring me into bed with her anyway? So another night of baby in bed attached to my boob. And she's awake and ready for the day at 5:30am. I fantasise about just walking downstairs and out the front door and never coming back ......

Oh dear ((un-Mumsnetty hugs)). I think that was the point I first did sleep training with DS. We did gradual withdrawal and after about three weeks of it he was down to three wake ups a night, but we still had to get up and sit by his cot every time. It then all went completely to shit when he got a cold. Gutting.

I say this to suggest sleep training might buy you a little bit of respite, but it may not stick. If you are desperate to do something, don't do CC as she's too young (I'm not part of the anti-CC brigade by any stretch, but it's not recommended for a baby under six months). Alternatively, are you able to hold her until she's heavily asleep and then do a stealthy transfer into the cot?

I'm a bit unclear about what controlled crying actually is. If I put her in her cot at bedtime and leave her to cry for 5 then 10 then 15 mins etc is that CC ? My HV suggested that's what need to do to teach her to self soothe. Previously my dh had tried a more gentle approach- stayed beside her talking to her holding her hand and occasionally lifting her out as necessary.

Controlled crying - leaving her alone in the room then returning for a quick check and reassurance as you describe at lengthening intervals. A bit surprised your HV suggested it for a baby under six months as, particularly at this point in development, they may still need a lot of night feeding, and also don't know that you're coming back which is not nice. It also only is supposed to work if you're not still sharing a room with her and at under six months an HV should be advocating that her cot is still in your room to reduce SIDS risk.

Cry it out - shut the door and leave them screaming without returning. Horrible thought, but some have been desperate enough to try it. Some have also found that their baby gets less wound up if they're not popping in and out of the room so much as with controlled crying. Very, very unpopular technique here on MN and sure to draw flaming and bunfights on a mahoosive scale!

Gradual withdrawal/gradual retreat/camping out - sitting by the cot while baby cries. Advice on what you do varies from holding a hand, leaving a hand on baby, shh-ing, or generally comforting but without picking up through to sitting by the cot without so much as making eye contact so baby knows you're there but aren't going to do anything. I went for the former approach. I'd feed, then put in cot awake, then me or DH patted and shh-ed without picking up until he fell asleep. We'd do this for every waking.

There's also pick up, put down (PUPD as it's frequently referenced on MN) where you pick up as soon as baby starts fussing then put her down when she calms down and starts getting sleepy then pick up again when she fusses and just keep going until she falls asleep. Can be back breaking - I think the Baby Whisperer who devised it did it 128 times with one baby, and somebody else I read about did it for four hours . It wound my DS up completely and it turned into PU with no PD! No Cry Sleep Solution sort of does a variation of this in combination with a very cuddly gradual withdrawal (i.e. cuddle in cot, pick up if fussing, back to cuddle in cot etc). DS is being a lot more responsive to this approach now that he's older than when we first tried it a few months ago. He is for this week anyway. I'm sure he'll work out a way around it soon...

Thanks for that detailed explanation. Last night awful again. She slept in her cot for a whopping hour and a half! Refused to go back to sleep in cot. Screamed for over an hour before I relented and took her in to bed. My question is this: is a five month old capable of thinking I'm not going in my cot because I'd rather sleep with mummy and I know she'll give in eventually ?

No, I think it's just 'I want to sleep near my mummy' - I don't think a baby of less than 12 months has a detailed concept of cause and effect like that. Biologically, and according to billions of years if evolution, babies are designed to sleep on/next to their mothers and feed as/when necessary. The concept of sleeping in a cot away from the mother is a relatively new, Western concept that babies haven't 'learned'. Sadly, modern lifestyles have developed a lot faster than evolution so we find ourselves at odds with the way babies want/need to sleep. Some babies adapt more quickly than others to our odd modern sleeping set ups. Our babies are obviously just very biologically attuned, and clearly exceptionally intelligent

Technically, therefore, there is nothing 'wrong' with your baby's sleep. It's absolutely natural and normal for her, just not for you! This is why sleep training is not always effective because you're fighting against billions of years of evolution.

If you're feeling desperate, I am absolutely not going to give you a lecture and I am more than happy to hold your hand while you do it. It might even work for you as it does for many. Just know that if it doesn't, or if you choose not to do it, you do start to harden up and cope better with the sleep deprivation. I can't say that your baby's sleep will improve, though, because we're still in the doldrums here!

I think I am actually suffering a bit with PND. Caused not doubt by exhaustion. Elphabathegreen and I really appreciate your words of encouragement. I just can't get the feeling out of my mi d that by bringing her in bed with me I am actually causing her to wake up more in the night than she would otherwise but then what is the alternative? Listen to her crying. I am not mentally able to do that. I also somehow feel its wrong if me to keep shoving my boob in my baby's mouth all night long just to get her to sleep. Am I doing her harm or over feeding her and making it less likely she will ever sttn? Hope your los let you get some rest last night?

You are definitely, definitely not doing her harm. You are sleeping and giving her comfort and food the way the human race was designed to receive it. The concept of 'approximately eight breastfeeds per 24 hrs' for a baby of your DD's age is, again, very Western. In traditional cultures, which mimic our prehistoric ancestors more closely than we do, babies are recorded as feeding an average of twenty times in 24 hours. Some of that has GOT to be through the night as well! So your DD's behaviour is normal and healthy, and you are supporting biologically normal, healthy baby sleeping and feeding patterns, not harming her AT ALL.

I think sleeping through the night is a holy grail, and you'll stay saner assuming it's not going to happen for at least the first year of your baby's life, then be pleasantly surprised if she does.

Is she really waking up more often? In his cot, my DS is awake every 90mins to 2hrs. In my bed, he's awake every 90 mins to 2hrs. The difference is when he's in bed with me, I rouse slightly for 10 minutes to feed him lying down, then knock off again, instead of waking fully for 30-45mins (or longer) making several abortive attempts to get him back in the cot which gets more difficult as the night progresses. More sleep for both of us.

WRT to thinking you might have PND, I can't encourage you enough to talk to your HV or GP. Antidepressants are very effective and the SSRIs (e.g. the really common ones like Prozac) are quite safe to take while continuing to BF. I sense that you can't see an end to this, which might be a barrier to being able to cope with the situation. Sometimes anti-depressants can genuinely help you to believe it when people say, 'she won't be like this forever'. Because she honestly won't

Elphabathegreen- I really really needed to hear that. I will remember what you said when I'm in bed tonight feeding and feeding baby. I think hopeless feelings are coming from the fact that not only is she waking in the night but that she is awake for the day at 5 am and will only nap when being pushed in the pram and she's even started to refuse those naps too! I'm going to see my gp next week to see what she can recommend. Thanks again for your support xx

No worries. Feel free to PM me if you'd like any more words of encouragement, ideas or very empathetic shoulder to cry on. x