What do you do when (slightly) older ones JUST WON'T FALL ASLEEP?

[MyNameIsInigoMontoya]

DS is (just) 5, and except as a baby, he's always been quite a good sleeper really - not easy to disturb, fairly easy to get to sleep and we even sometimes get a bit of a lie-in at the weekend (not long though, and he's always up by 7.30 at latest during the week so I don't think that's the issue!).

But lately there are too many nights when we get him to bed - or at least, to his room - but he just won't actually go to sleep. Tonight has been one of the worst, he was up for bed by about 8 and we let him play quietly or read for a little longer (hoping he'd be tired enough to sleep after that) but even after we took the toys away, he has been lying in bed chattering, singing, making up games with his cuddly toy, occasionally calling out for one of us when he got a bit bored (we try to be as dull as possible if we do have to go up!). But he's still awake now!

I feel bad for him as either he does really need to be asleep but isn't managing, or he really isn't tired, in which case I feel a bit guilty making him stay in bed the whole time and occasionally getting a bit ratty because he STILL won't go to sleep, or shut up long enough to give himself the chance.

And on a personal (selfish) note, it is driving me nuts as things are always crazy busy at the moment with work and looking after him and DD (2) and I really NEED the time once they are both asleep to a) finally actually get something done, and b) try and get a bit of peace and clear headspace for myself if I'm lucky. But hearing him constantly chattering on from upstairs, and having to STILL watch what we say, what we do upstairs etc as he's still awake is just making me even more frazzled.

I know it's nothing compared to the poor parents with the babies who won't sleep AT ALL (yes we went through that too!), but would still be very grateful for any ideas that might help, or just knowing if this is normal?

I have no advice I'm afraid but we are in a similar situation. DS is also 5, goes to bed at 8 but can be heard up to 1 1/2 hours later singing, banging about or occasionally coming out on some pretence of something he absolutely needs to tell us then. He gets treats removed if he keeps coming out/making lots of noise (and rewarded if he stays in bed quietly - I have 5mo DS who has been woken by his evening shenanigans too many times). But he does seem to need the sleep as almost every morning I have to wake him at 8 so that we're not late for school.

Well I'm glad it's not just me at least.

MIL keeps telling me how "all" children are tired this time of year because of the end of term etc etc. I wish she'd tell DS instead!

Rewards might be an idea I suppose. I haven't tried that approach for a long time cos it never really worked that well with him before (when we tried it for other things). But I suppose that is forgetting the Law of Children - They Change! So it might be worth trying again.

Yup,definitely worth a try (although DS has always been worryingly susceptible to bribes rewards)!

ds gets like this, although he is now older
I actually think that the more tired he is, the harder he finds it. i think he gets a bit wired from being tired.

I have tried introducing more bedtime wind down, including lower light levels, (so bedside light not overhead etc) all the usual stuff, bath, story. I try and make sure he has told me about his day over dinner so he has offloaded.

But in the end we have a rule, once I have put you to bed, you stay in your room. I wouldn't allow toys to start with, wind down routine and then bed. But I would shut the door and leave him to it. You will not be coming back up as you have things to do, end of story. Do make sure his room is not too light, darkness helps.
My nephew has never needed much sleep, he goes up at 7pm, and falls asleep at 10 pm, but stays in his room and potters.

My 3 year had started refusing to sleep.

Last night he was up til 11 watching the same film over and over while I threw up due to the bug he managed to pass on without getting his self

What time does he get up? My 5yo is a nightmare if he's not tired at bedtime - he doesn't like to be left alone and will keep calling for us (unlike my 3yo who will look at a picture book until he falls asleep...)

I find that having them get up always at the same time every day (ie not sleeping in at weekends) and go to bed at the same time means that their biological clocks are set so firmly that they fall asleep very quickly at bedtime. They go to bed at 7 and get up at 6.15

Mm, offloading about the day is a good idea too if we can persuade him to talk, though anything too much like a question usually gets "I do not want to tell you"!

Maybe we should just be a bit stricter about calling out and noise too, and about his bedside light. At the moment he's allowed it on for a while as he hates having it too dark, he always wants the door open too and the light on outside. I'm always trying to get him to have it darker so he can sleep, but then he gets upset!

During the week I wake him by 7.30 if he's not already awake (sometimes he wakes earlier, especially if DD is up). At weekends it varies, sometimes he wakes quite early but sometimes would sleep till 9 if we let him! (We don't though, unless he's been particularly tired).

I wish it was easier to tell the difference between "too tired" and "not tired", if I was more sure that he really needed to sleep more I would be stricter! But then would feel bad if he really just isn't tired or can't sleep. My sister, who is a bit of an insomniac, was recently complaining about when she was a child and was made to lie in bed for hours even when she just couldn't sleep, which has made me a bit conscious of that possibility I suppose.

I would second the same time up in the morning. (although to be honest I wouldn't wake mine if they stayed asleep til 9 am

but to establish body clock I would wake them up within 30 minutes of normal time. You can just go in say good morning and turn on a light, thye don't have to be bouncing around

Re the bedside light. I would veto it, put a landing light on and the door as shut as he will let you. Or buy one of the very very dim plug in night lights and put it wher ehe can see it. Remember the room always seems very dark when the big light first goes off, so I often turn the main light off and do cuddles and bedtime kisses by the light if the landing, then their eyes have adjusted. Do take him seriously about the dark though, that is a genuine fear at this age.

I hear what you are saying about your sister though, like my nephew not sleeping til 10 pm. I think the key is what is he like during the day. My ds is horrendous and looks like death warmed up when he is tired. My nephew is fine. BUT, you don't have ot have him down stairs playing, you can say, bedroom time now, even if he isn't a sleeper and you let him play for a while.