HELP ME PLEASE - 5 month old waking at 4 or 5am - SOOOOOO TIRED ;o(

[SazzleMc]

Hi there, looking for any advice that could help me and my 5 month old little girl.

Our routine is... 3 hourly bottle feeds (6oz bottles - doesn't always finish).
1st feed @ 7am, then 10am, 1pm, 4pm and 7pm. Bath at 7.30pm, bed by 8pm.

Sleeps through BUT wakes at 4am or 5am chatting, then gets restless. I use a dummy and she does eventually drop back off into a very light sleep. We then get up at 6.45am. (this was always her time before the early waking.

She only has approx 100ml at her 1st 7am feed and then by 8am wants to go to sleep. So she sleeps from 8am to 9.30am/10am. She is so tired and grumpy come 8am that she is desperate on her bed, due to early waking.

Through the day she naps at approx 11.15am and 2.15pm and 5.15pm. All approx 45 mins to hour sometimes a wee bit longer.

Now though she is looking for her naps even earlier due to overtiredness, ARGGHHH. Poor wee thing.

We have tried earlier to bed and later to bed in the evening. We still wake at 4 or 5am.

Any advice is welcomed,

thanks in advance x

My 8mo is like this, I sympathise - 4 or 5am is a horrible time to have your sleep disturbed.

What we did was reinstate the dreamfeed we had been doing since she was very little. She had started to drop the feed herself so we had gone with that, but really she wasn't getting enough milk throughout the day. She's was 4 hourly 8oz bottles, so we dropped them to 7oz and changed the bedtime bottle to 5oz so that we had some leeway to reintroduce the milk feed. (We're weaning at the moment which isn't helping matters either).

However we still had to do a few nights of CIO. The combination of the two seems to have worked. If your DD is waking 'happy' them ignoring her might work, if you are going in to her then she has learnt that she gets resettled at 5am. DD didn't really want to be awake, though she wasn't hysterical, and so leaving her to moan for a few nights worked - she moaned for about ten inutes before dropping back off again. Now she goes from 7.30 to 6.30.

Another tip I have read on here is to not actually move that morning nap earlier, despite baby being very tired, as it teaches them that they can catch up on the sleep they are not getting at night.

It might be worth looking at the 5.15 nap, as does that mean she wakes up at 6pm before bedtime at 7pm? DD was also a baby that liked a late afternoon nap and couldn't go a long time without catnapping, but that does sound quite late. If she is having 4 hours naps during the day it might be that she is having some of her 'night' sleep during the day, iyswim. I think DD stayed awake about 2.5 hours at 5 months, so could you try spacing the naps out to get 3 1hr naps throughout the day?

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry I should have also said that we give her a dreamfeed at 10.30pm where she takes 6 or 7 oz.

I wondered about the first am nap being too early. That might just be the problem. She has learned that she can catch up then - like your thinking. She is going to take some amount on distracting to keep her awake. Maybe try a 9am nap?

Also wondered about the 5.15pm nap. She is in bed by 8pm.

Do you think she should be going 4 hours between feeds now?

Thanks again

DD has only very recently gone to 4 hourly feeds, she has always been a little-and-often girl, so we were definitely on the 3 hourly feeds at the age your DD is. Milk-wise they'll take what they want, when they want and there is little you can do about it!

At 5 months our day went something like this...

7am-ish - wake, 7oz bottle
9.30-10 - nap
10 - 7oz bottle
1 - 7oz bottle
1-1.30 - nap
4-5 - nap (to make it an hour she would either sleep on me or we'd go out in the buggy)
7 - bath
7.30 - bedtime, 7oz bottle
10.30 - 7oz dreamfeed

I'm no expert, this is DC1, but from what else I've read on here you could maybe try shifting the naps so she has 3 (especially if she will go longer than 30 mins herself) and is awake 2-2.5 hours between each nap.

If she's not hungry or upset at her 4/5am wake-up you always have the option of ignoring it and seeing if she goes back to sleep by herself. Combined with a later morning nap that might make a difference.

My DS did the same. He started sleeping through the night at 3.5 months (i.e. from dreamfeed at 10.30pm to 6.30am) but then a couple of weeks later he hit 4 months and started the 4am (like clockwork) party as I used to refer to it. It would go on for at least an hour, sometimes and hour and a half, and it made no difference whether I fed him or not, he would still lay in cot chatting/yelling/whooping and generally keeping me awake. Once back asleep, sometimes not until 5.30, he would still wake at 6 - 6.30am for the day and often I had not managed to get back to sleep so was awake from 4am daily. It ground me down, but thankfully I can report he grew out of it and by the time he was about 6 months he was just down to an early waking for the day at 6.15am but had usually slept until that point. He is now 9 months and we have gone back to one night feed (varies from 1.30am at the earliest to 5am at the latest) where he is truely hungry and guzzles the bottle down greedily, then just wants to be back in his cot and goes off to most times at least 7am, the latest being almost 8am. All a bit of a shock to me as DD went through from 8/9 weeks and never regressed once, but I am at least living in hope this time that it is just a phase, he will grow out of it and I just need to hang in there.

Wow...my almost 4 month old sleeps from 9pm until 4-4:30am, usually uninterrupted and for this I've been told I'm very lucky! Yours sleeps even longer and sounds takes routine naps through the day. m My advice would be, 'Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!'

I agree - my almost 5 month DS wakes for the day at 5 am but he has had us up usually 3 times since bedtime. and never takes a nap longer than half an hour in the day.

Thanks Ladies,, good to hear your stories too and thank goodness I don't feel like i am the only once up so early.

Started our new trial today, it will either work well after a few days/weeks or blow up in my face.

Same feeding routine, but diff nap times. Started first one at 8.30am this am, then 11.30am then 3.15pm. Aiming for the 3 naps instead of 4, hopefully push the 1st nap of the day to 9am in the next few days.

Watch this space, would you like me to keep you all updated?

We have tried, shes not hungry. So we stopped it. Her 1st feed is at 7am. She doesn't take alot then either, about 100-130ml.

I think her daytime naps are the problem. If she's waking happy, it sounds like she's had her sleep quota. At this age, my DD was on an hour from 9-10, 2 hours at lunch (12-2) and a 15 min catnap if needed at 4.30ish.

The early morning nap is a bitch because it prolongs the cycle of early morning waking. omama gives good advice on this subject and I think she'd recommend moving that nap later gradually, eg 10 mins every few days, also cap it at an hour so that her next sleep is longer and hopefully around lunchtime. She's having quite a few 45 min naps throughout the day and the last nap is perhaps one too many.

Hope that helps.

loveisagirlnameddaisy

Nap wise - an hour and a half x 2 (one at 8.30 and one at 11.30) and a half at 3.15/3.30pm is how today has gone. Fingers crossed over the next few days I can shift the 1st to 9am.

It makes sense. Thanks so much.

To loveisagirlnameddaisy
....

what or who is omama ? sorry to be stupid!

omama is a MNer who posts in the sleep section quite a lot. She and I seem to have similar views on sleep and I think she's helped quite a few people. Hopefully, she'll pop by and see your thread.

Sounds like you're on the right track though! Stick with it... When we had sleep issues, it took 5/6 weeks to put them right. These things often don't change overnight even though we would like them to. :)

OP, one thing I forgot to say (and was reminded on last night at 4.30am!) is that your baby might keep waking up at this time, its just that you hopefully will be able to teach her resettle herself. I often wake up hearing DD muttering to herself as she goes back to sleep. She doesn't need any help and happily goes back off but you know what it is like, you are sleeping lighter because of the baby, so that does wake me some nights. It does mean your sleep is disturbed still, but its still better than actually getting up and waking up more, and I'm gradually starting to sleep through it.

hi sazzle saw your other thread. I def agree with what pp's have suggested regarding pushing the morning nap later. That is the key. ATM your DD is making up for that lost night sleep with an early & long morning nap, and so it will keep her in the early waking cycle.

I think you need to do a few things:

Firstly aim to shift the morning nap to no earlier than 9am. I would do this very gradually, by pushing the nap 5-10mins later every few days. Don't push it any harder or you may find she gets too overtired.

loveis To be honest I'm on the fence about capping the morning nap just yet. If she were older I'd say cap it at 1hr max for sure, but she is still so young. I'd probably cap it at no less than 1.5hrs, & this only to ensure she has decent naps in the afternoon too.

Secondly, consolidate some of those afternoon catnaps into a single restorative nap after lunch. At the moment she isn't awake for long enough before her second nap, hence why she only sleeps 45 mins (though that can also be developmental between 3-6 months!). Aim for more like 2-2.5hrs awake after her morning nap & she should take a decent length lunchtime nap too.

Finally, by restructuring the routine so she has a morning & lunchtime nap, she should need to take the teatime catnap a wee bit earlier, meaning bedtime can also be earlier, more like 7pm. She is getting to an age now where she may start to refuse this nap & if she does, bring bedtime even earlier, rather than doing a late catnap & late bedtime.

I ultimately think you need to be aiming for something along the lines of:

Up: 6.30-7am
Nap: 9-10/10.30
Nap: 12.30/1-2.30/3
CN: 4/4.30 for 30mins max (if needed - if PM nap was 1-3pm she shouldn't need this)
Bed: 7pm (if no CN do earlier BT at 6-6.30)

It may take several weeks to see an improvement in the early waking, so be patient & give her time to adjust to the new routine. if the EW does persist, the next step would be to drop the tea time catnap (combined with an early bedtime til she adjusts, & if it still persists, then & only then would I suggest cutting back the morning nap, possibly combined with pushing it later.

HTH.x

Have a nap yourself during the day too if you are knackered.

This was very important and helpful for me when the nippers were little.

Sorry, I'm just going to do a little hijack here but Omama, can I pick your brains on nap extensions? I've an 8mo who doesn't often sleep past 30 mins. She has just started to do 1-2 hours in the morning, but no matter how tired she is she generally only sleeps 30 mins in the afternoon. Its not enough and she's still tired, but she won't go to sleep again for another 2 hours at least. I'm just interested, as you mention above 'consolidating' a few afternoon naps, but do you have any advice on how you can achieve that? Ta! (DD is starting at the CM and the catnaps just aren't practically any more...)

Omama, stormed ahead on Tuesday... thought it had amazingly worked overnight as Tues was great but no, last night was not a good night!

Stormed ahead as in, instead of the 8am nap, i pushed it straight to 8.40am. Pushed back all the naps. Tues night was great, one slight stir but nothing like its been. Wednesday followed all same (new) times, big mistake (overtired baby now) last night she was soooo restless, not a great night sleep at all. Kept waking ;o( poor wee lamb.

So today 1st nap 8.10am instead of 8am.

Omama she feeds every 3 hours starting at 7am so kind of struggling on how i will fit in her new nap times (Based on trying to extend her awake times and letting her have 3 naps only).

I was thinking....

6.30am - get up
7am - feed
8.10am (gradually pushing to 9am) - nap
10am - feed
11.30 - nap
1.00pm - feed
3.00pm - nap
4.00pm - feed
6.30pm - feed
7.00pm - bath
7.30pm - bed
10.30pm - dreamfeed

Is that enough daytime sleep? Argghhh so confused esp since i mucked it up and made her overtired!

She has fed every 3 hours for so long now that i am worried about having to change it.

I found last night that she was so tired at about 6pm. Yest she has 2 x 45 mins naps and one 55 mins nap.

Oh omama i hope i am not pestering you, just cant see the how to get out of this circle we are in.

I totally get your advice - it all sounds amazing and i am so confident it will work, its just how to fit it around her feeding schedule that confuses me.

x

I

Agghhh she only slept 50 mins at 1st 8.10am nap this morning! Why if she is tired.

Only 50 minutes! I rarely get a daytime nap longer than 30 minutes unless I go for a nice long drive.
You are overthinking all this. Don't try to force some sort of routine that doesnt' work for her. When she is tired get her down for a nap. Doesn't matter if she has 2 3 or even 4 naps in the day. As omama says between 3 and 6 months the short naps are a developmental stage. Just go with it for now and then try consolidating the short naps into a longer nap. At the moment the only way I get a longer nap apart from going driving is by putting him in a sling and going for a long walk or letting him nap on my chest.

By my calculations, your DD gets easily twice the sleep mine does. I would dearly, dearly /love/ even half the routine yours has (hell, I'd like something vaguely resembling any kind of routine which refuses to happen despite every conceivable kind of 'nudge' on my part!). You are so, so lucky. I would feel like I was seriously pushing my luck to get anything more than what you've already got. I'm with katandkit - there's a lot of develo

Oh, poo...ph

AARGH! PHONE!! There's lots of developmental things happening and other factors like teething that are going to cause daily variations. Go with them! I'm sure you don't feel the need to fall asleep at exactly the same time/s everyday or have the same levels of alertness or tiredness each day - neither will she.

Ah, does sound like shes got a bit overtired hun. Unfortunately, overtiredness is unavoidable when you push the morning nap out, because you are stretching them to stay awake a little bit longer than usual. This is why you need to go nice & slow, to keep it to a minimum & give her time to adjust before you push it on again. So what time was she up this morning?

WRT her feeds & how to fit it all in - are you feeding 3hourly because thats when she asks for it or because thats when she's fed for so long that now you just assume she'll be hungry & offer her a feed anyway? And how much is she drinking at each feed?

I ask this because I ended up doing just the same with my DS, but then he got so he wasn't taking much at each feed, and because he didn't take much, he needed another feed quite soon after, so he was effectively 'snacking' his way through the day. What I did was gradually stretch his feed times by 5 or 10mins every few days until he was going around 4hrs between feeds, so having milk as soon as he got up, mid morning, mid afternoon & at bedtime. He went from 4-5oz per feed up to 7-8oz per feed because he was more hungry for it. So he would do something like this:

Milk: 6.30-7am
Nap: 9-10
Milk: 10.30
Nap: 12.30/1-2.30/3
Milk:2.30/3 (as soon as he woke)
Milk: 6.45
Bed: 7pm

Do you think something like that could work for your DD? Then it will fit around her naps too?

My only concern if you keep giving her a nap at 11.30am, she still won't have been awake for long enough to take a nap of any decent length, so she may only sleep 45mins, but then you have pushed her afternoon nap 45mins later to 3pm, so you are expecting her to stay up for even longer after a short nap, IYSWIM? This may just make her overtired. IIWY I would try & nudge it a little later, especially if she takes a good length morning nap. Ultimately, you need to let her take the lead & show you when she is tired - all babies are individual & what suits one doesn't necessarily suit another. The above routine though is a pretty standard one that many babies tend to fall into naturally.

Finally, I do agree with katandkit try to relax a bit - 3-6 months can be a very frustrating stage where no matter what you do, the 45min naps can stick around, and then all of a sudden, she will start to sleep for longer. So if the suggestions don't help, keep it in mind that very soon, she should settle into a nice & regular routine all of her own.xx