11.5mo won't go in her cot, we're exhausted, have I been wrong?

[mrstiggywinklethehappyhedgehog]

I'm really starting to wonder whether I've been doing things right with DD. She's nearly a year old and for the last 6 or 7 months we've struggled with sleep. Now she is in our bed every night, usually almost as soon as we've gone to bed, which was just about ok when we slept well, but she's started waking and crawling round on us and wanting to play in the small hours. DH works long hours and is really struggling without sleep, as am I by this point!

How it happened.... Our bedtime routine since 8weeks has been supper/bf, story, bath, bf to sleep, put her in cot (around 7-7.30pm) and sneak away...! She has always woken at night and a quick feed used to put her back to sleep, I would put her back in the cot, all good. Then she started to wake up screaming as soon as I lowered her into the cot... Eventually, shattered, I gave up and took her in our bed where she would have another bf and drop off happily, waking for another bf or two, and we all slept well. So this continued til now, but now it's rare for her to go down at bedtime without a struggle, she has to be fast asleep before I put her in the cot and often wakes screaming at that point. It can take over an hour to get her in, by which time I am tired, sometimes angry and/or upset myself. I sometimes end up bringing her back down in the evening if DH is working late and she won't go to sleep, just so I can have my dinner! Then the same thing if she wakes again, til we go to bed and take her in our bed.

I am at a loss. I've always been against letting her cry, she doesn't whimper but goes straight to full-on red-faced heartbreaking crying, tears running down her face, I can't stand to see her like that and it can't be good for her to get so worked up. But at the same time we can't go on all being sleep deprived and trying to get her to go/stay asleep is taking all evening. She plays happily in her cot during the day, why can't she sleep in it at night?! I've always told DH that I would not do 'sleep training' and that I didn't want her to think that I /we would not be there for her if she cried. But now I'm starting to doubt myself and wonder whether I should be doing things differently. Everyone else I know seems to have been willing to do some kind of sleep training, am I stupid/ stubborn / crazy to have let things get like this?!

Sorry for such a long post, I will be so grateful to anyone who reads it and has any words of wisdom or even just sympathy! Thank you xxx

It's so tough. My 10.5 mo DS was having issues sleeping ( always fed to sleep, multiple wakings for a feed etc). Different situation to you in that he slept in his cot ok but was very much in the habit of waking multiple times each night for a feed/comfort suck.
I had always been against sleep training/ letting him cry but we reached a point where we thought that, on balance, it was better for us all to be sleeping better and DS had never had an opportunity to learn how to sleep through because we'd always gone straight to him when he stirred with boob. He didn't know anything else.

We did a kind of pick up put down where we stayed with him, didn't feed, and tried to comfort him as he learnt to fall asleep without a feed. They will cry when using these methods but we thought that as long as we're always there it's not as hardcore as full on controlled crying. First time was very hard. It was about midnight and he stirred and it took my husband about an hour to settle him. He cried s lot and I did sit by the monitor wondering if we'd done the right thing. He eventually settled to sleep.. Tired from crying and sniffing which was hard to see but we just tried to think about the bigger picture. He woke once again that night and if took about 15 min to resettle I think.

He's been going without a feed in the night for about 3 weeks now and has slept right through ( from 730-7ish) quite a few times. He will often wake and cry out 1-2 times a night but now resettles himself without needing us after about 5 min. Sometimes we need to go in and shhhhhh him back to sleep.

I can't believe it sometimes... After 10 months of getting up every few hours multiples times a night to sleeping through more often than not!

We thought DS was ready for it and wouldn't have tried earlier. He's eating pretty well and has his boob before bed and we did have a big of regression when he had a cold for a few days but got back to usual very quickly.

It's working for us at the moment.. I was anxious before doing it but am glad we did . Feels like we have our evenings back and it's great thinking. dS is getting longer blocks of sleep overnight.

Thank you so much for replying! And such an encouraging reply too. I cant believe how well your approach worked for you, it's really making me think that maybe now is the time to do something different. I've been doing exactly what you say, always comforting her with the boob, and now my one strategy is failing I'm lost! it's also really hard to think long-term when you know that in the short term any change is going to be harder and more stressful (and result in even less sleep!) Also, I don't want to totally stop bf, she's not a great eater so I think she still needs it, but would happily reduce it a bit. When do you give your DS a feed before bed? Last thing? And what do you do if he falls asleep while feeding??

He has his last feed right before bed.... And then that's it until he wakes between 6-7ish in the mornings. He does get drowsy while feeding and what I do is try and make sure he doesn't fall asleep on the boob and knows that he is going into his cot. I think I walk a fine line though as he's often very very sleepy and just rolls over and will nod off if he's had enough to drink. I want to try and increase the time between feeding and dropping off to sleep but this seems to work for now and what we did was sort the subsequent wakings out. So he tanks up at this last feed and then that's it for the night.
I go back to work soon and do want to continue feeding... So am hoping that he can have a feed when he wakes up and then this last feed just before bed.
At the moment he naps twice a day. First one is usually at home around 10ish and the second is usually out in the buggy around 2-3ish. I currently feed before the first nap too and need to gradually stop doing that and get him to the point where he will settle without boob. I imagine it will involve more crying at some point which we will need to go through to change the current habit.

I think don't do the sleep training stuff until you are ready and think DC is ready. Once you start consistency is the key.... It is hard when they have been upset for eg 35 min and you know that simply picking them up and feeding will immediately sort it. I just thought if I did that though then it would have put DS through that upset. For nothing.

My son was difficult to get into his cot at night and it started at around 10 months i guess. We used to spend the nights walking around the block in the pram to get him to sleep and then transfer him to his cot. It got to the point where it wasn't manegable anymore so we got a sleep consultant in. We had to do controlled crying and it worked. She sat with us the first night and talked us through it. Once we had the knowledge and ability to do it it was really quite easy. He now goes to bed without a peep every night. We are having trouble with night time waking (he is now 20 months) so I know we need to do the controlled crying again so I am getting the same sleep consultant again to hold our hand again. It's tough but once you ahve done it once it really is easier and you know then you have the ability to get them to go to bed at night.

Hi Tiggy, sorry to hear you've been going through a rough time. I could have written your original post when dd was the age of your dd (she's now 2.4). I too always bf her to sleep, & was at a loss as to what to do when this stopped working! It got to the point where me or dh were spending all evening trying to get her to nod off, usually by laying her on our bed until she was asleep, then carefully transferring her to the cot & crossing our fingers! This often didn't work, & she frequently ended up spending the night in our bed.

I totally felt the same about not wanting to leave her to cry, wanting her to know we were there for her if she needed us, but in the end had to accept that the current situation wasn't doing any of us any good. So we bit the bullet & did controlled crying.

I won't lie, it was hard, & the first night she took 2 and a half hrs to go to sleep (I know that sounds dreadful, but I kept going in to her at intervals to reassure her). But honestly, it worked a miracle, & within 4 nights, she was settling herself to sleep within 5 minutes, having been laid down awake in her cot. I NEVER believed I would be able to lay her down awake & her nod off by herself, but she did! We've never had a problem with sleep since (barring illness etc), and she now sleeps longer & better than any toddlers I know! (typically 7.30pm-9.30am!). We moved her into a 'grown-up' bed just after she turned 2, & and she still settles just fine.

We're having dc2 on Tuesday, so about to start this all over again! Best of luck, & I really hope you get his sorted, I was at my wits' end when dd wouldn't sleep!

Morning ladies, thank you all for your experiences. After another terrible night last night, I am even more determined to do something... I just looked at the post by nectarina about gradual settling, I am also thinking of talking to a sleep consultant but I am a bit scared that they will just recommend cc. I know it works well for lots of people i just still feel a bit uneasy about it, although i definitely understand what petitemummy said about knowing things are not working and needing to make a change. Littleone, I like that you and your dh stayed with your dc, I think we will have to do it like that as she just gets even more hysterical if we try and leave the room. It is daunting though. Ideally I would like a good nights sleep so that I feel I am thinking sensibly about it and have the energy to persist in the face of the inevitable screaming... But if I had a good nights sleep I wouldnt be posting this now! DD and I are going to my parents' for a couple of days this week so hopefully I'll be able to get a bit of daytime rest while they wrestle with her, then I can read my 'no cry sleep solution' and your posts and feel like I've got a plan, rather than just a desperate need for sleep... It's really helpful to hear that other people have been through this too, thank you all.

Speak to a sleep consultant. Honestly the cc is not that bad. They teach you how to listen to the cries and when you learn that, it's not so bad. Remember a baby crying is it's way of communicating so instead of thinking that he is crying, you think of it as him in the cot yelling "Mum, get back in here! I need your help to fall asleep!". I just found the sleep consultant gave us the confidence to do it.

I now need to tackle night time waking and so will have to adopt a similar approach throughout the night. However, I know I need to do it because it has gone on for too long.

I am happy to report back on how the techniques worked if you would like....

MrsT, with both of mine I was exhausted with night wakings but suddenly reached the point that I wanted to do something long term about it and was annoyed enough about it that I found I had the energy to deal with it. With dd we did controlled crying and it took 3 days. She was 7mo. DS was different and we tried at 6mo, 7mo and 8mo and at 9mo we're working on him self settling and a week in he's sleeping 7-4. Good luck.

Have a look at the advice on this thread - you don't have to use CC.

We used the techniques advised in "The Baby Whisperer" (though I didn't have time to read the whole book, I was only able to get the gist od the theory behind it)

From what you say OP, it sounds to me like you're going down the same path we did - you develop bed-time routines that work for a newborn, but the needs of an older baby who is beginning to think and understand more about the world are different. A newborn baby, and a younger baby, just need to be well fed and comfortable and they will sleep when they need to. An older baby is begining to understand that things that happen have causes and effects, and is also beginning to notice the presence and absence of individuals in a much more conscious way.

We realised that our bedtime routine which worked for a 0-6m.o. baby were actually really UNhelpful for enabling our 9-10m.o. baby to sleep. The baby whisperer helped us to get our DS used to the idea of falling asleep in his cot without an adult in the room. We were nearby and available for reassurance and never let him cry unanswered for more than a minute or two, as advised by the Baby Whisperer method, but it's very different from CC.

Thanks for the link to the other thread Heads, I read your experiences with interest... It's tricky with DD as she screams furiously and won't stop with patting, shushing, talking, etc (although I haven't tried anything consistently) she just bats my hands away from her and cries and screams and arches her back til I pick her up. Then it takes her a while (and sometimes a feed) to calm down and go to sleep. What is the baby whisperer book called? Sounds like it will be worth a look but I think if I try pick up/ put down I will be in there literally all night. Emmyloo I would definitely be interested to hear your experiences, my neighbour has just recommended me a sleep consultant, she couldn't recommend her highly enough, the phrase 'life-changing' was used! I may give her a call to get a feeling for her approach and if I think I could do it. I know what you mean about crying being their way of communicating, that's why I've always been reluctant to try any sleep training on her while she's too small to understand me telling her that everything's ok, I'm here if you need me, etc. I just can't stand the thought of her crying in her heartbreaking hysterical way and me not picking her up and giving her the cuddles she wants / needs - and yet I am so exhausted and I don't want to carry on like this. It's so hard. Being a mum is hard!

Hearing them cry is never easy, but for us, it was so worth persevering to get to the point of her settling herself happily, then we were all happy! The trouble is, it's more upsetting when you're already sleep deprived. If you do go for cc, make sure you have your partner or someone around for those first few nights, as it's so tempting to just give in & give them a cuddle! And I'm no hard nut by the way, I cried when dd moved out of our room at age 7 months! (she was fine about it!).

Hi MrsT - the book's full title is Secrets Of The Baby Whisperer: How to Calm, Connect and Communicate with your Baby.

One of the secrets is to have the perseverence to continue all night if necessary. You only have to do this once (and probably it wouldn't be ACTUALLY all night) - but every visit is reasuring, loving but boring and unrewarding - such that she isn't getting positive-feedback reward for the effort of crying that she is putting in. Eventually she WILL fall asleep. The next night, when you start the process again, I guarantee you she won't have the stamina to stay awake for as long, and you will get her asleep with half the effort. The effort required will approximately halve each night until it equalises at a token level of resistance that she feels happy with as adequately expressing that she'd rather not co-operate but can't be bothered to fight you any more - and eventually she won't even bother with this any more.

I will definitely need help, whatever we do! DH works such long hours that I might actually get him to take some time off work (once I finally decide what i m going to do!) Thanks for the book title Elephants I will get myself over to Amazon now... Writing this while feeding DD to sleep - let's hope she goes down easily tonight...!

HeadsShouldersKneesAndToes, that makes sense about a routine that works for a tiny baby not being the best for an older one - what changes did you make to your routine and when?

My babies are all grown up now so I've only glanced at this subject before.
My memory is a bit (very) hazy, so, although I remember frustrations when they wouldn't sleep/ kept waking, I didn't do cc. I don't think it even had a name then! But, I have noticed that no-one ever mentions singing as part of their routine. I know it might sound daft, but I definitely spent a lot of time singing soothing songs. Sometimes while BFing and sometimes once the baby was in the cot. I struck me that that might work well with some of your other ideas i.e. when you put the baby in the cot and they cry, and you stay with them but don't take them out. It gives them, and you, something to focus on instead of the screaming/crying. And you get to a point where they can choose the song, so they feel they are, to an extent, influencing what is happening.

I would honestly say the thing is she is used to being bf and simultaneously cuddled to sleep so that is what you need to change...

One of those things in hindsight, always bf babies to sleep can make bed time tricky as they need the sucking everytime they come into a light sleep.

Good luck when you decide to bite the bullet and change things, you could start by just not giving her a last bf and dh cuddling her to sleep?

Hey mrstiggywinklethehappyhedgehog

Sleep deprivation is horrible. You have my sympathies. My oldest was (and is) a horrendous sleeper. I too was against cc, but around 10 months DH had had enough, and we gave it a go. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but it didn't work. We went from me having to cuddle for 2 hrs before he dropped off to sleep to him screaming for 2 hrs and then dropping off to sleep. The time didn't reduce. Maybe it just doesn't work for some babies.

After I'd persuaded DH is wasn't working (10 awful awful nights later) he let me go my own way about it. I ended up sleeping on DS1 floor for many nights, which allowed me to stick a hand through the bars and sing to him (as bewitched suggests) and sort of doze as I hadn't "got out of bed". I had a blow up mattress and a folded up double duvet underneath me, and a duvet on top. It wasn't that bad. Is that an option?

It may not be much comfort, but around 18 months he suddenly got much better, and around 2, he got it. Yes, he still wakes a couple of times a night, but its a 5 min job to get him back to sleep - just go in, a kiss, and tell him its still night time. We didn't do anything for the improvement at 18 months. The 2year improvement came when he wanted to grow big, and we told him he needed to eat well and sleep well to grow as big as Grandad.

Just one other thought, and then I'll stop this essay. What are naps like? If they are OK, what are the differences between naps and night? Is it lighter? Noisier? In which case can you put on a night light or a very low radio to mimic the days?

I hope you find something which allows you to get more sleep soon.

The routine we developed with DS when he was very young was Bath, storybook, BF till drowsy then into the cot with me lying next to him (we had a co-sleeper cot) with my hand on his chest providing some contact and comfort, and I would talk softly or sing till he would drop off.

from about 6-8 months this just gradually stopped working - it would take longer and longer for him to drop off, by 9m we were going frantic with the effort it was taking - he would be giggling, poking me, grabbing at my nose and ears and turning over and around every which way in his cot, finding ways to be naughty, just not dropping off to sleep, but rather trying to make it a play time. It could go on for 3 hours or more so I was getting no evening "down time".

We realised post-babywhisperer that my presence in the room trying to soothe and reassure him was actually being stimulating and interesting. His naughtiness was the misbehaviour of over-tiredness as he struggled with his exhaustion and felt he needed to make himself more and more hyper to fight off the sleep.

Post-BW, we just had one song, sung from just outside the bedroom door, followed by a kind but firm "I love you very much, you are very lovely and good and safe, and now it is time to sleep, go to sleep."

It took about 8 nights of the BW technique to get to the point where he would try to settle himself straight away at that point. Even then we would still he to go in a couple of times if he got upset with frustration at not being able to fall asleep at-will - but at least he was actively co-operating with the idea that it was time for sleep. He had to learn that sleep was a nice thing, to be welcomed, not fought, so it wasn't easy.

One thing I remember the book pointing out is that we all have sleep-cycles - it is normal to rowse slightly at numerous points in the night - and as adults we often aren't even aware of doing so, we just rowse, see that it is still sleep-time and all is well, and go back to sleep. A child's (inc post-newborn stage crawlers & toddlers) last few awake minutes before sleep comes at bed-time need to be self-managed so that he/she can replicate the process when needed in the night. Sleep study scientists have found that even babies who "sleep through the night", as well as older children and adults, actually wake between 3 and 7 times during the night - but usually only for a minute or two and barely remembered - but with good self-settling skills this doesn't stop the child or their parents from getting a good night's sleep. It becomes a problem if the only way a child knows to get themselves re-settled back to sleep is to have a cuddle from mummy and BF - if that's what they know they need, then that's what they must have, until they learn another way.