Early waking and the Millpond Clinic

[sheeplikessleep]

DS2 is 2.4 and since 10 months old, has always woken between 4.30am and 5.30am every day. We've tried getting more daylight early evening, snack before bed, leaving him to cry etc, but he just seems to be ready for the day then.

We're thinking of using the Millpond clinic (after recommendations I've seen on here), but I just wondered if anyone has used it for early waking? At the moment, I see no end in sight. DS1 starts school in September and gets woken up by his little brother. I need to get DS2 sleeping until 6am ASAP.

Thanks for reading

Can anyone offer any advice-please? Am desperate

Feeno - I am the OP, but am following some suggestions here about cutting back on daytime naps (4 weeks now and no affect though. I'm giving it 2 more weeks, before I cave in on letting him catch up in the daytime, as he is over exhausted now).

I think LaTristesse was the only poster who was also talking about going to Millpond, but I don't know if she ended up doing so or not.

I understand your desperation, I really do. I'm sorry I can't give any words of advice!

Thanks sheep. It's pretty rubbish when you want to help your child as they're desperately tired but just can't seem to get timings right. I'm a mess and he's a mess.

sorry to hear that. what time is he napping & what time is he going to bed? Is he waking himself after 40mins or is that when you are waking him? He was taking a good 1.5-2hr nap wasn't he? I am wondering if perhaps you may have chopped too far.

I've been on a similar journey with my 23 month old DS & cut his nap back to 1hr but he too had red rimmed eyes & was clearly struggling. Just over a week ago I actually reinstated his full nap & he wakes when he is ready. The compromise for us is that it means his bedtime is later (because of the longer nap) & he is waking slightly earlier than he was, but he looks well rested so for me, that is the main thing. His routine is now looking like this

Up: 6.30-7 (more like 6.30 though!)
Nap: 1-3/3.15
Bed: 7.50pm but not asleep til 8.15-8.30

If your DS is still taking an early nap at say 12 midday, I still second my earlier advice to gradually push the nap later, say 15 mins per week. But perhaps let him sleep a bit longer at the nap. This will in turn allow him to feel more rested, and he should hopefully start to sleep a bit better at night. He is of course, older than my DS so I'm not sure how much a longer nap will impact on his bedtime. I do think if he naps for 1.5-2hrs though, that 7pm is too early at this age.

HTH.x

feeno - can you post his day with the 4.30am WU so I can see what is happening on his 2 nap routine, before you tried to jump to 1 nap, when you did just 1 nap & also what you are doing now with the short morning catnap? It helps to see wakeup time, naptimes & length & bedtime & this will help folks offer you some relevant advice.

At his age now he may well be ready for just 1 nap but you will need to work on getting it towards lunchtime if you want the early waking & overtiredness at bedtime to stop. To do this you may need to very slowly nudge it later by 15mins per week & do a very early bedtime too. And remember - this is a phase & things will get better.x

sheep he sounds as if he has become overtired. I would give him a couple of days of sleeping as long as he likes (assuming you're waking him?) and then cut down again gradually.

I'm really sorry it's not working faster, it is so horrid to see them knackered.

Hello loveis and omama, thank you (once again!) for posting. Thank you.

He goes to bed at 7pm/7.30pm (shattered, falls straight asleep). He wakes 5am / 5.30am. He naps 1 / 1.30pm. I wake him after 40 minutes to an hour. He is groggy, cuddly and dopey when I wake him. He doesn't want to wake up. His CM (2 days a week) says he is exhausted and keeps falling asleep at various points in the day.

I feel at the end of my tether with it all. I feel bad he is so desperately overtired and red bloodshot eyes by the end of the day. His big brother is also still being woken at 5am and he fell asleep in his cereal the other day.

TBH, I'm starting to doubt this will work, maybe he is just an early riser? I am so desperate for a post 6am wake up in our household.

Maybe I will let him sleep as long as he likes tomorrow and cut back gradually again. It's so hard.

He started in a big bed last week, so now he comes in at 5am, saying 'mama'. Least before he just screamed and shouted from his cot.

Thank you again for posting. I do appreciate your thoughts.

Oh thank you thank you so much! Ok, so we started off with this:
Day 1
WU 4.30
Nap 9.30-12
BT 6
Day 2
WU 5.40
Nap 10-12
BT 6
Day 3
WU 7.30
11.30-1
BT 7.30
Day 4
WU 6.45
Nap 11-12.45
BT 7
Day 5 (this is where it all went pear shaped I think)
WU 4.00
Nap 9-planned to cap but would not wake so let him sleep till 12.30
BT 7 (not my plan-grandparents had been given strict instruction for a 6 BT but they didn't listen cuz they think later bed = later rise
NW at 11.30 and 2am
Day 6
WU 6.30
Nap 10.20-12 (my mum put him down bit early here I feel)
BT 7 even though I begged them to put him to bed early
Day 7
WU 4.50
Nap 1 9-10
Nap 2 2-3.30
BT 7.30
Day 8
WU 4.35
Nap 1 9.15-10.15
Nap 2 2.15-3.45
BT 8
Day 9
WU 5.40
Nap 1 9.30-10.30
Nap 2 2.25-3.50
BT 8
Day 9
WU 5.45
Nap 11.15-12.45
BT 6.45 NW at 11-11.30
Day 10
WU 5.45
Nap 1 9.30-10
Nap 2 1.25-2.45
BT 6.45 but didn't sleep till 7.10
Today
WU stirring 4.55 proper awake 5.20
Nap 1 9.30-10
Nap 2 1.30-3pm
Planning EBT of 6.30 as already tired poss OT

As you can see its been all over the shop- I really wish I hadn't left him at my mums now as I think it was going in right direction till then. I just need some support to keep consistent and fix the OT

Thank you for your support and help xx

Btw this is all from memory so may not be entirely accurate but is appriximate

approximate stupid phone again!

sheep - reading your reply I would most definitely reinstate a longer nap. Like love says try letting him sleep tomorrow. I would probably put him down a wee bit earlier if you are able to, 12.30ish, 1 at the latest, so he can have a decent sleep but he also gets a decent amount of time awake between nap and bedtime. In a few days he will hopefully look a lot better & be less tired. Going forward, I expect you may find once he's caught up, that the BT resistance starts up again. Then you may have to decide whether you accept a later BT & keep the nap, or you start trimming it back very slowly. I would probably cut 15 mins off the end of the nap, keep bedtime the same, then wait a couple of weeks so see what effect it has. It may take more than just a few days to see the true effect so going slower may stop the OT setting in so severely. Another option is to try for an earlier nap in the hopes that b/c it is earlier, he won't need to sleep for as long. This doesn't work for my LO b/c he won't nap til he's been awake for a good 6hrs, and for him, early nap = early wake, but I know others who do this at this age because a later nap impacts on BT so much. HTH.x

feeno - ok here's what I think. While he stays on 2 naps the morning nap needs to be no earlier than 9.30 & no longer than 30mins. Any earlier/longer & you will still get EW. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if the EW continue even with a 9.30am nap at this age. he may do better with a shorter catnap of say 15mins (but TBH I hated waking my LO from a nap that short - it barely seemed worth it, yk?). Or he may need the nap at 10am, but if you do this, it will of course have a knock on effect at the other end of the day (because afternoon nap will need to go later & so will bedtime). I think with 2 naps trying for early bedtimes may also work against you. If he's had a decent nap in the afternoon he is likely to need a decent amount of time awake before bed.

I think on the 1 nap he looked like he was getting overtired, but I suspect this is because he was pushed too far too soon. His nap went from 9.30am on day 1 to 11.30am on day 3 which is quite a big jump. If you go down this route, and esp if you are starting from an EW position, I would start off by putting him down for his nap after 4.5-5 hrs absolute max. So say he woke at 5.30am on day 1, nap should be 10.30am at the latest. Let him sleep. He may still need a short catnap in the afternoon at around tea-time. Keep it v short so it doesn't interfere with BT. If he won't take one definitely do early bedtime. 6pm is already late when the only nap of the day is in the morning. Hold the nap at 10.30am for a good 3-5 days, then move it 15mins later. Keep bedtime at 6pm until the nap starts at 11am & lasts a good 2hrs. If nap is more than 2hrs he may cope with a slightly later bedtime. Wait another 5 days & move the nap 15mins later again. Over time you may be able to very slowly push the nap and bedtime back out until he's napping at lunchtime and bedtime is back at 7pm. He will get a bit overtired with this transition & it will take a few weeks to adjust. Given he is 15months I'd say he should cope ok with it though.

My advice to you would be whatever you decide to do, try & remain consistent with your nap timings to let his bodyclock have a chance to adjust to a regular routine. Chopping & changing too much will mean his routine stays erratic.

Phew that was a long post! HTH.x

We also have a persistent 4.30-5.15 waker ds, that started in march at 17 months and is still going. He also does morning sleeps with the child minder and afternoons too but if he's with me I can get him to about 12ish before he's throwing himself on the floor screaming he's so tired. Must admit I haven't really limited this mid day nap but its usually only an hour so I am going to try that but we've done the rest ie later to bed, earlier to bed, gizmos and gadgets, although not really consistently.

I'm exhausted, I do a full time job in part time hours, husband runs is own business and he's as shattered as me. Early nights aren't an option most of the time because there's so much to do when the kids go to bed. One consolation is that ds isn't suffering.

*dd sorry

Hi-just to let you know we has an 11hour 15 minute night last night after EBT at 6.35-he woke at 5.50 which is brill for him. He was definitely OT so EBT worked today. He seems much happier today. I'm going to try for catnap again 9.30 and stick with it for 5-7 days unless he refuses it and then go down to 15 min CN to get him to the pm nap for another 5-7 days and then start pushing slowly slowly for the one nap as he'll be closer to 16 mths by then and prob better able to handle the longer A times. I am convinced he's not low sleep needs as he gets OT very easily without his proper 13-14 hours worth of sleep a day. I think what we have is a battle against OT more than anything-it's my gut instinct and we'll go from there. Does that sound ok?

fantastic news! sometimes ebt can do the trick to get you back on track. I'd probably only keep it up for a couple of days though or you might find he starts to get UT. I think staying with the same routine for a good week or so before deciding whether he needs a further chop sounds like a good plan. IME hanging onto the morning nap for as long as possible is a good idea - sometimes if you switch too early they can struggle & get pretty OT.

getstuffed - if your DS is 21-22 months now (is that right?) & he is still having 2 naps a day I would definitely try to get him on a single nap consistently. Carrying on with a morning nap at this age is what is likely keeping you in the EW cycle. Then on the days at home where you do keep him up til lunchtime from a 4.30-5 am WU he is likely OT hence why he only naps for 1hr. I certainly wouldn't limit his nap to 1hr at the moment. IIWM I would start off with nap every day at 11am for as long as he wants - if he only naps 1hr try an early bedtime at around 6pm, if he naps for longer he should hopefully last til 7pm ish. Then after a week I would gradually start pushing the nap later 15mins at a time until he is eventually napping after lunch. Only when the nap is post lunchtime (starting around 12.30-1pm) should you consider cutting his daytime sleep bit, & even then, only if you find the length of his daytime nap affects him settling well at bedtime or leads to long night wakings or early waking.

That said, I recently cut my DS's nap for this very reason but he struggled on so little daytime sleep & was very overtired. I have reinstated his full nap 2hrs (1-3pm) & he goes to bed at 8pm (asleep around 8.15) & he wakes 6.30-7am.

DS2 slept until 6.30am this morning.

Bad news - he was awake 3 times in the night prior to this. Interestingly, DS1 woke at 4.30am (he is now in an EWU cycle!), disturbed DS2 who cried for a minute or two and then fell back asleep. I'm wondering if the whole wake to sleep theory might work with DS2?

sheep - you could always try it, esp if he wakes at pretty much the same time each day. You know you don't wake him fully don't you - you only need to do something eg gently stroke his hand or move his bedsheet so he stirs, maybe a sigh, or he turns over, & he should move on into another full sleep cycle & hopefully sleep in later.

Was he awake for long overnight last night? Have you tried the longer nap again the last few days & if so do you feel it is helping?

It must be tough with 2 esp if one ends up waking the other. I've only got the 1 so I'm afraid I haven't got any practical advice on that.

My DS sometimes wakes at night too, there is no avoiding it completely as children have shorter sleep cycles than adults so they come into a lighter sleep more frequently. He usually rolls over & goes back to sleep without needing any assistance from me though. Do you have to go to your DS when he wakes at night? If so, how do you resettle him?

Omama - hi, we've had a few good days now (yay!).

yesterday, he woke at 5.30am, sounded really groggy, so i went in, covered him back up, gave him a bit of water and he laid back down, i said good night and left. i expected him to be shouting for me as i left and was quite shocked he stayed quiet. he then woke at 5.55am (although i can't be sure he wasn't just in bed lying awake, but quiet - tbh, i don't think he'd do this). brilliant.

this morning, he woke at 5.45am, dh heard him. he didn't go in, but ds2 then went back to sleep and woke at 6.20am (hello sane wake up time, lovely!). i couldn't believe it this morning - dh turned to me and said "have you seen the time?!?". lovely, i feel like i have a spring in my step.

we don't normally go in if he wakes during the night. 9 out of 10 nights, we don't hear anything from him until 5am. it's unusual for him to wake. if he does, i tend to just go in, check he's ok, cover him back up, offer him water. night wakings aren't normally a problem, thankfully!

when we let him nap longer at the weekend, he actually woke up naturally after an hour and a quarter. i don't want to get too excited or pre-empt anything, but he does seem to be getting more frequent 5.45am starts and his sleep through til 6.20am this morning was amazing.

fingers crossed!

to have two early wake ups where he seemed more groggy than awake is really unusual (and for one of these he put himself back to sleep without us going in). normally, he is up and ready for the day then and pushing his duvet back. his behaviour these last two days feels more like a night waking, than a morning wake up, IYSWIM? i really hope this isn't just a blip.

hi sheep - sorry only just seeing this. yay for the later WU! hope it continues! How have the last few days been?

Hey Sheep, I posted earlier on as I was having terrible times with early waking too, and was at the end of my tether and about to call Millpond. I never did as there would be good days and better days, but on the whole we're still struggling and I think I'll make the call this week.

Well, we are now at pretty constant 5.45am wake ups, for the last few days, boo!

LaTristesse - fingers crossed Millpond works for you - please let me know. I'm really hoping DS2s wake up time is just very slowly and gradually getting later.

I have to say we haven't had any 4.30s for a little while, at least not ones where he's actually got up. I always tell him to go back to sleep and on the odd occasion (this morning was one), he does go back to sleep. He's usually up between 5 and 5.30 so that's obviously an improvement, but still a killer! I think my main concern is that his behaviour gets so bad when he's knackered, and for that reason I need to get this sorted before he gets to school. Thankfully I do have a couple of years to work on it, but don't want to leave it that long! Will let you know how I get on...

Omama hi, just thought I'd say ds2 is now sleeping until 6 am, yay! He had a few days of unrestricted nap times and since the, he has woken at 6Amish. I wake him from his daytime nap now after an hour or an hour and a half maximum. I'm also trying to get out a lot, lots of exercise. Thank you for posting so much. I feel so much better, laughing so much more, it all feels so much easier. Let's hope it continues!!