Anyone NOT waking their toddler from naps?

[omama]

Just wondered really. My DS is 22 months & we are getting an awful lot of messing around/chatting/playing at bedtimes. I've started capping his nap & over the last 3 weeks have gradually trimmed it by 15mins at a time. We are now at 1hr & his BT's are improving, but still taking around 30mins (he used to settle in 10mins max), He isn't sleeping any longer at night & he looks shattered all day. I don't think he's quite ready to do without the nap completely so I am wondering if I might just be better to leave him to nap what he naturally wants to, rather than waking him. I am just a little scared after hearing lots of horror stories from friends of children still napping what they want but then not going to sleep until 10pm. My DS has always loved his daytime naps & will sleep in excess of 2hrs if left to his own devices.

So if you don't wake your toddler from their naps - do you find bedtime is late or a struggle? And is your DC sleeping in until a decent time in the mornings or waking early?

My dd is 23 months and doesn't settle until atleast 10pm everynight and wakes between 6am-7am and some nights she wakes up at 1am & 3am but i try to ignore her as she often settles herself.
Like your dc my dd always looks tired and i have tried to cut out naps but it doesn't make the situation any better, she just ends up more tired bless her.
I let her have her afternoon nap as she needs her sleep, but i feel your pain op..

DTs are 20 months and I don't wake them from naps (or at any other time if I can help it!).

On nursery days they seem to sleep 1 - 2 hours from 12.30 ish, on 'home' days they sleep for 2 - 4 hours from about 10am. On all days they get up at 6am or shortly after and go to bed sometime between 6pm and 7.30pm, though they aren't yet sleeping through (they feed back to sleep overnight though).

Could he be messing about at bedtime because he's overtired?

My Dts have been a nightmare at bedtime and I thought it was because they weren't tired enough - they would mess about until 9.30pm.

I brought their bedtime forward from 8-8.30 to 6.30-7 and now they go to sleep like a dream! They are 2 3/4

happy - his routine from 19-21 months was:

Up: 7.15
Nap: 1.15-3 (capped at 1h 45 because we'd had bedtime resistance with a 2hr nap plus early waking at 6am)
BT: 8pm

He would go straight to sleep & sleep through until morning & this worked for 2 months. Then he suddenly started messing around at bedtime & wasn't falling to sleep until 8.30pm. And he started to resist his naptime and wake even earlier in the morning. I didn't like the 8pm bedtime anyway (we'd reluctantly pushed it later to combat early waking but felt it was too late) so decided to accept an earlier start to the day in return for an earlier bedtime. So I attempted shifting his routine to:

Up: 6.45-7am
Nap: 1-2.30pm (capped at 1.5hrs so he'd be tired enough for bed given he wasn't with the 1h 45 nap)
Bed: 7.30

except he still didn't fall asleep until gone 8pm, and started waking at 6.20am. It seemed like he wasn't tired enough at bedtime. So now I've cut the nap even shorter to 1hr:

Up: 6.45-7am (ish)
Nap: 1.30-2.30
Bed: 7.30 (he went straight to sleep yesterday but today STILL took until 7.45)

So would you say his bedtime is still too late? or his nap too late? I tried an earlier BT of 7pm the other day & he just chatted til 7.30 anyway & same is happening if I try an earlier naptime - he just chatters for aaages. I'm so used to him going to sleep quickly within 10mins - this resistance is all new (but it started BEFORE I started cutting the nap so that is not the cause). He does seem to be getting overtired with the short nap but I don't know what else to do as with a long nap his bedtime is getting so late & his nights are getting short. I soooo want to let him nap but I am scared we will end up like pumpkinsweetie with him up until 10pm

DD2 (2.4) has an hour's sleep (1-2) if we're home, and she seems to need it.

I wake her up after an hour because in the afternoon she'd sleep for ages, then she'd go down at 7pm but wake up at some point in the middle of the night and play with her toys (in her cot) for hours.

I only realised she was doing this due to pregnancy insomnia.

Then the next day she is shattered (she needs to be up at 7am so we can get DD1 to nursery) and cranky.

sorry i don't want this to sound like I am complaining that my child isn't sleeping enough b/c on paper it looks great. And it is amazing that he is sleeping in until past 6am (he has been a chronic early waker).

What concerns me is whether it is a bad idea to restrict a 22 month olds nap to just 1hr in order to make them go to sleep at a reasonable bedtime? And if I don't - is it reasonable to expect him to still go to sleep at 7.30pm if he's napped for 2hrs + in the day? Or do I I just have to accept he may need to stay up til we go to bed at night???

Sorry, no magic ideas here - I've been waking 2yo DS up for ages and wishing I didn't have to (sooo miss the golden days of 3 hr naps with no consequences at bedtime). I try and limit it to 1 1/2 hours.

He is always super grumpy when I wake him too. The worst was the day I tried a short nap of under 1 hour. Actual tears and wailing. Keeping him up all day was a no go either.

Can you bring nap forward? DS is same age, he wakes at 7.30 am goes for nap at 11.00 am - never waken him and he will nap between 1.5 - 3 hours. Bedtime is at 7 pm.

Bedtime routine important for us, he settles much better after a short walk and a bath then straight to bed.

molejazz - commiserations. We get wailing most days when I wake him - its no fun is it?

BreeVanDerTramp - Oh how I wish I could. DS used to nap at 11/11.30am when he was around 15/16months for around 2-2.5hrs, with a 7pm bedtime. And he would wake at 5/5.30am. I only got rid of the early waking by pushing his nap later to 12.30pm & capping it at 2hrs max, coupled with a 7.30pm bedtime. I think I have a fairly low sleep needs kid on my hands.

Well ladies the last few days I've decided to watch DS and put him down when he is tired & let him sleep. He's been waking around 6.45am, napping around 1/1.15pm for 1.5-1.75hrs & then bedtime has been somewhere around 7.45pm (depending on length of nap). However, he is looking absolutely exhausted. His nights aren't long enough but I don't know how to make them any longer.

If I cap his nap shorter, yes he settles quicker at bedtime but he isn't sleeping for any longer at night (so he's waking earlier) AND he's super grumpy in the day

But if I don't cap his nap then he takes much longer to settle at bedtime AND he's tired in the day from not a long enough night sleep.

Feels a bit like being stuck inbetween a rock & a hard place.

I find I have to wake my 23-month-old DS from his naps - if I didn't wake him he'd sleep for two hours or more, and not go to bed till 10pm. He skips his nap maybe 2-3 times a week so I'm guessing it won't be long till he drops it altogether. When he does nap we try to wake him at the end of a sleep cycle, as in theory it means he is less grumpy. So we watch him after 40-45 mins or after about 1.5 hours, and when we see him stir we pounce and wake him up. He's generally OKish after 1.5 hours but can be pretty grumpy after 45 mins. It's such a bloody minefield. He's at nursery until 1.30 two days a week so by the time I get him down on those days it's at least 2pm, hence why we don't want him to sleep for more than 45 mins. At the weekend he went to sleep before 12pm both days so we were able to let him sleep for 1.5 hours.

I'm jealous of anyone with toddlers who nap. My son is 28 months old & hasn't napped for months...I really miss them. Apparently he still does at nursery but they limit it to about an hour. If he does have a longer nap then bedtimes are a nightmare, no nap = toddler actually wanting to go to bed which is a result!

woodlands - when he skips his nap, do you put him down in bed but he just doesn't sleep, or do you just look at him & think he doesn't seem tired, so you just don't put him down ???

Just wondering as I ALWAYS put my DS down, whether he is looking tired or not & he always goes off to sleep. But then we get the bedtime resistance. I am wondering if maybe doing this is working against us as perhaps he's going off to sleep out of habit (he knows the drill) rather than because he actually needs it. I swear sometimes he doesn't look tired at all so maybe on those days I should just keep him up?

What do you do though, if he doesn't seem tired at regular naptime, but then at say 3pm he looks tired - would you allow your DS to nap in that situation or would you keep him going til bedtime, no matter how grumpy he gets?

We have only done 1 no nap day so far & he coped fine & slept 13hrs straight through so I suppose it could be on the horizon for us too.

Well I have to confess I have always found it hard to get my DS off to sleep for his naps, and I'm afraid I still breastfeed him to sleep (at night he won't Bf to sleep and goes to sleep perfectly happily after being put down awake). If I put him in his cot awake for a nap he simply won't sleep, never has. People always say I should leave him some toys or books and he'll drop off, but he won't. The longest I left it was about two hours and he was still awake (though perfectly happy). However even BFing to sleep doesn't always work and I end up having to take him out in the pushchair, walking FAST over rough ground with no buses/lorries/diggers/motorbikes in sight (hard in London) for about 20 mins to get him off to sleep - and even that doesn't always work. Today nothing worked but he was actually pretty cheerful till bedtime. He goes to nursery one full day a week and they do get him to sleep there, not sure how!

I'd say if your DS goes to sleep when you put him down then he must need it - I wouldn't have thought he'd do it out of habit. CAn you try limiting his naps to 45 mins and seeing what happens? How about if you put him down for a nap at say 11.30 - would he sleep then (because then you might be able to let him sleep longer without any bedtime consequences)?

I do like bedtime on the no nap days - he is asleep by about 7.15 with no fuss and sleeps 12-13 hours straight!

Yea I suppose he must need it. WRT doing a longer/earlier nap at 11.30am, he used to nap at this time at around 15/16 months. Initially it worked great, but then he started to wake early at 5/5.30am. I took some advice to push his nap later and it worked a treat. Same thing happened at 18 months when his nap was at 12.30 for 2hrs, he started fighting bedtime & then started EWing so I pushed the nap later again to 1pm & it stopped.

So I'm a bit pained to go back to an earlier nap for that reason.

He's had just a 45min nap today - went down late due to later wakeup this morning & woke naturally at 1.50pm. Sadly, he is very very overtired tonight & even though we have gone with an earlier bedtime he isn't asleep yet. I've a feeling it'll be a late and short night.

I don't wake mine up at all. They are in bed for their bed time I don't mind if they chat play for hours after that as long as they stay in bed it is not my problem IYSWIM.
At that age DD1 used to go to bed at 7 pm and chat, sing, "read" until 10 pm (she dropped her nap around 2.7 and then went straight to sleep). DD2's bed time is 8/8h30 she will talk a bit 1/2h-1h max if she has napped. She is 2.5 and has been dropping naps on and off since she was about 22 months,

I'll tell you what we do, but it might not help! DS is 23 mo. He wakes up about 6.30-7 and will be happy to play until 7-7.30 when we get him up. He'll go down for 2 hours (straight down into his cot) about 12.30-1. We start his bedtime routine at 6, with a bath, Bible story & milk (and an Oaty bar or Weetabix, he was waking up hungry about 5am before we started that) and he'll be in his bed by 6.45. Sometimes he'll play with his cuddly toys and we'll hear him singing for 30 minutes, but then he'll go off to sleep.

My only thought is whether you have a blackout blind. Are the light evenings confusing your DS. Also, reading back, bedtime seems quite late. I know that my DS gets overtired and hyperactive if we don't get him to bed in the 'window'. Worth trying an earlier bedtime for a while? Or having a look at your bedtime routine?

Thanks for the replies.

LeMous - DS is still in a cot & room is completely blacked out so he can't really play, other than chatter to his teddies. I don't mind him doing that though.

Bartlet - yes we have blackout blinds, and blackout curtain & all taped down so the room is completely dark. Did this when he was much younger due to ongoing EW!

WRT BT - siigh - yes I know it looks late on paper & especially to anyone who has had a 12hr per night sleeper (he never ever has been, always more like 10.5-11hrs no matter what I try). I really don't know what else to do though - if I put him down any earlier he either doesn't go to sleep til his usual time anyway, OR he falls asleep early but we get EW the next day. Whereas if I put him down nearer to 8pm he is generally out within 10mins (instead of 45mins) & WAS sleeping til a decent time in the morning.

We have a very calm bedtime routine of bath/wash, pj's, bottle, story, nappy change, cuddles & bed. We also try to avoid doing anything right before bedtime that could be too stimulating or likely to get him all hyper, so tend to do things like colouring, reading or he plays with a few toy cars.

I DO think he is getting OT now, but I really don't see where it is coming from, or how I can attribute it to his bedtime being too late. His routine (until recently) looked like this & I am 100% sure he wasn't overtired with it:

Up: 7.15
Nap: 1.15-3
Bed: 8

And he was sleeping brilliantly, no night wakings, he woke happy in the morning and had no bags under his eyes. I am absolutely 100% sure he wasn't overtired with this routine. It has only been since he has started waking earlier in the mornings (around 6.30am) that he has seemed overtired.

While I agree that an 8pm bedtime is late when he wakes at 6.30am, would you still consider it late even when he was waking at 7.15am??? it wasn't when he was waking at 7.15 was it? I am mostly worried that pulling bedtime (and the nap) earlier isn't solving the initial problem of why he started waking earlier in the first place IYSWIM? Surely all it will do is mean that he keeps on waking at 6.30am? (ok not that that is so bad - don't get me wrong but now I have finally had a taste of 7am wakeups I am greedy & want to keep them)

Today, he woke late at 7.40am (11.5hr night - bit of a one off lie in, catching up from lots of early mornings). As a result he wasn't ready to nap til 1.50pm (put him down at the first eye rub at 1.20pm but he took 30mins to fall asleep). And he woke after just 45mins argh! No idea why, but he was fine all afternoon til about 6pm when he started to tire. We decided on an earlier bedtime tonight (to make sure he didn't get overtired) & had him in bed for 7.30pm (so his day was less than 12hrs). He still didn't go to sleep til 8pm.

Am I completely getting this all wrong & he is just plain old severely overtired?

I really don't know what to do. His natural rhythm seems to be a nap at around 1/1.15 for 1.5-1.75hrs, but can I heck fathom out when his bedtime should be. Maybe I do need to go earlier (self doubt kicks in). If I do & he starts to wake at 5am I may kill someone though.

Thanks for the replies.

LeMous - DS is still in a cot & room is completely blacked out so he can't really play, other than chatter to his teddies. I don't mind him doing that though.

Bartlet - yes we have blackout blinds, and blackout curtain & all taped down so the room is completely dark. Did this when he was much younger due to ongoing EW!

WRT BT - siigh - yes I know it looks late on paper & especially to anyone who has had a 12hr per night sleeper (he never ever has been, always more like 10.5-11hrs no matter what I try). I really don't know what else to do though - if I put him down any earlier he either doesn't go to sleep til his usual time anyway, OR he falls asleep early but we get EW the next day. Whereas if I put him down nearer to 8pm he is generally out within 10mins (instead of 45mins) & WAS sleeping til a decent time in the morning.

We have a very calm bedtime routine of bath/wash, pj's, bottle, story, nappy change, cuddles & bed. We also try to avoid doing anything right before bedtime that could be too stimulating or likely to get him all hyper, so tend to do things like colouring, reading or he plays with a few toy cars.

I DO think he is getting OT now, but I really don't see where it is coming from, or how I can attribute it to his bedtime being too late. His routine (until recently) looked like this & I am 100% sure he wasn't overtired with it:

Up: 7.15
Nap: 1.15-3
Bed: 8

And he was sleeping brilliantly, no night wakings, he woke happy in the morning and had no bags under his eyes. I am absolutely 100% sure he wasn't overtired with this routine. It has only been since he has started waking earlier in the mornings (around 6.30am) that he has seemed overtired.

While I agree that an 8pm bedtime is late when he wakes at 6.30am, would you still consider it late even when he was waking at 7.15am??? it wasn't when he was waking at 7.15 was it? I am mostly worried that pulling bedtime (and the nap) earlier isn't solving the initial problem of why he started waking earlier in the first place IYSWIM? Surely all it will do is mean that he keeps on waking at 6.30am? (ok not that that is so bad - don't get me wrong but now I have finally had a taste of 7am wakeups I am greedy & want to keep them)

Today, he woke late at 7.40am (11.5hr night - bit of a one off lie in, catching up from lots of early mornings). As a result he wasn't ready to nap til 1.50pm (put him down at the first eye rub at 1.20pm but he took 30mins to fall asleep). And he woke after just 45mins argh! No idea why, but he was fine all afternoon til about 6pm when he started to tire. We decided on an earlier bedtime tonight (to make sure he didn't get overtired) & had him in bed for 7.30pm (so his day was less than 12hrs). He still didn't go to sleep til 8pm.

Am I completely getting this all wrong & he is just plain old severely overtired?

I really don't know what to do. His natural rhythm seems to be a nap at around 1/1.15 for 1.5-1.75hrs, but can I heck fathom out when his bedtime should be. Maybe I do need to go earlier (self doubt kicks in). If I do & he starts to wake at 5am I may kill someone though.

Just catching up on my Threads I'm On...

On reading your last message his pattern that day sounds like the ideal I'm aiming for! What exactly was the problem with it? Did he wake early the next day? How are things since then? I think an 8pm bedtime for a toddler who still naps sounds absolutely fine. My 23 month old seems to need 12 hours sleep in total, so 11.15 hours at night plus 45 mins nap is just right.

What timings are you aiming for? My DD who has been very easy since we got tougher with naps will still have the odd 10.5/11 hour night. I think that's normal.

IIWM, I would make the nap shorter (30/45 mins) and earlier. I know you've previously moved the nap later, but I think this is affecting his ability to settle at bedtime which may also be causing the earlier mornings. I'd also reinstate earlier bedtimes (7pm) and wake at 7am if he's still asleep. Also, do it for a few weeks before making any judgement.

He may need to drop the nap soon and appears grumpy because his nighttime sleep is compromised by retaining the nap.

Hi folks - just catching up on this. The 45min nap didn't work out so great - he did 3 days of it & was an absolute overtired wreck by the end of it, even though he pulled slightly longer nights.

In the last few days we are hoping we may have hit on something that works ok for him:

Up: 7am (give or take 10mins)
Nap: 1-2.30
Bed: 8pm STTN

He seems to be managing this quite fine, and his nights are still around 11hrs which is grand. I know his BT is still late compared with some LO's but he simply isn't tired enough to go down any earlier while he keeps having the longer nap. I am absolutely certain he isn't overtired at bedtime as he is sleeping through with no wakeups. He's not ready to manage the day on a shorter nap yet, its just not enough to sustain him, so this may be the best compromise for now.

Thanks for the support everyone.x